Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
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14-01-2013, 05:33 PM
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
(14-01-2013 01:08 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Alright how about I just state that both Joker and Bane were trying to show the true ugly nature of the "innocent" people Batman was protecting... before "cleansing" Gotham of the filth?

And what about the other examples I mentioned?

Tyler Durden sought to erase the financial imbalance and offset the order of things.

I don't think Doc Oc works because he was being mind controlled.

What about Se7en's John Doe? He did horrible things to people, but he also had a reason. Although he was mostly a Christian terrorist, he did have some good points.
David Mills: Wait, I thought all you did was kill innocent people.
John Doe: Innocent? Is that supposed to be funny? An obese man... a disgusting man who could barely stand up; a man who if you saw him on the street, you'd point him out to your friends so that they could join you in mocking him; a man, who if you saw him while you were eating, you wouldn't be able to finish your meal. After him, I picked the lawyer and I know you both must have been secretly thanking me for that one. This is a man who dedicated his life to making money by lying with every breath that he could muster to keeping murderers and rapists on the streets!
David Mills: Murderers?
John Doe: A woman...
David Mills: Murderers, John, like yourself?
John Doe: [interrupts] A woman... so ugly on the inside she couldn't bear to go on living if she couldn't be beautiful on the outside. A drug dealer, a drug dealing pederast, actually! And let's not forget the disease-spreading whore! Only in a world this shitty could you even try to say these were innocent people and keep a straight face. But that's the point. We see a deadly sin on every street corner, in every home, and we tolerate it. We tolerate it because it's common, it's trivial. We tolerate it morning, noon, and night. Well, not anymore. I'm setting the example. What I've done is going to be puzzled over and studied and followed... forever.

Meanwhile, all of this is completely going over Mills' head and he's just spouting generic cop lines.

I can only really comment on the batman ones.

The whole thing was basically meant to torture batman, undoing all the good he had done and make him watch helplessly as gotham tore itself apart. They could have cleansed gotham at any time with the neutron bomb, but everything before that was meant as revenge for the death of talias father.

As for the joker yeah he was trying to expose humans for what they really are. Then tried to commit mass murder when he was proven wrong.

The characters are different between the comic's and the films. Those two in the comics have no morals, The joker does things he thinks are funny often involving torture and death. Where as bane's only goal was to make enough chaos to wear down batman to break his spirit then his body.

The Riddler seems to only want to prove he is smarter than everyone especially batman, and he doesn't care how many people he harms to get there.

The penguin, Ruthless capitalist doesn't care who dies as long as he gets what he want.

Mr freeze. Not evil. Does what he does purely to help his wife still kills innocents if they get in his way.

All of them are highly intelligent but none of them are rebels, they are all psychopaths, they all have their own agenda and don't care who they need to harm or what they need to do to get it.

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14-01-2013, 07:10 PM
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
(12-01-2013 07:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  Hmmm, I would say that Dirty Harry acts illegally so that he can act ethically.

And Charles Bronson and his Death Wish, Michael Douglas when he was Falling Down, and, more recently, Liam Neeson getting pissed off when shit gets Taken and Clint Eastwood taking care of his goddam Gran Torino. Big Grin

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14-01-2013, 10:54 PM
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
I never really intended to argue that bad guys were moral, simply that they were the intelligent ones mostly fighting for a purpose, while the good guys are often mindless followers of the law.

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14-01-2013, 11:40 PM
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
(11-01-2013 10:55 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 08:12 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Here's a light-hearted topic to discuss while I arrange my notes for presentation.

I've noticed that the "bad guys" in movies and comics (and sometimes books) are intelligent people, usually fighting for a just cause or rebelling against an unfair system and the "good guys" are mindless rule followers. And I need you folk to give me more suggestions for examples. Here's what I have so far.

Note that I haven't haven't done the research and gotten the specific quotes yet, I just have ideas.

Batman is the best example of this. His best argument against locking all these people up is because "they're breaking the law." Gotham is a cesspool of corruption and crime and Batman seems to think that the system is fine and that the people trying to cause havoc and mayhem in this hopeless septic tank of existence are "criminals" who should be punished.

Joker for instance (Dark Knight movie Joker) only sought to expose the true nature society as the disgusting thing it was. The only people he killed were thugs (the disappearing pencil and the Why So Serious? part). He gave the two boats of people the option to kill each other with the triggers, and as he claimed about the Harvey Dent/Rachel choosing thing.. "I was in Gordon's cage. I didn't rig those charges." He tries to show Batman that the people only praise him when they need him. His whole purpose is to pull back the cover and expose the truth.

Bane (also movie version, not the roided out Venom addict) is yet another genius fighting for change. He has morals and conviction.
-I paid you a small fortune.
"And this gives you power over me?"
-This is a stock exchange. There's no money to steal here.
"Really? Then why are you people here?"

As for other intelligent vigilantes that aren't necessarily evil that I might be able to find quotes from, I'm thinking:

Magneto (X-Men)
Doctor Octopus
The Penguin (I remember he was super intelligent... I forget his cause)
The Riddler (also smart, not sure he has a moral cause)
Mr Freeze (genius scientist trying to revive his wife... Batman doesn't let him)
Hannibal Lector
Tyler Durden
John Doe (Kevin Spacey in Se7en)
Travolta in Swordfish (I remember some kind of righteous speech)
Bill the Butcher (Gangs of New York)
Cyrus the Virus (Con Air)
Keifer Sutherland (in Phone Booth)
Maybe a few James Bond villains?

In most cases, there is some greater ideal and convictions being fought for and some "good guy" trying to stop them because they are mindless robots.

But I haven't watched all movies that exist. What are a few more you can throw at me? And why are we asked to cheer for the "good guy" who is simple-minded and one-dimensional? Man bad, must stop bad man, put in jail. Me good.

Hi BC,

While I'll agree with Magneto of the Xmen, is intelligent, I would hardly consider Wolverine (aka Logan and im talking in the comics not so much the movies) was hardly a follow-rules-kind of guy. He did feel he 'owed a debt' somewhat to Professor X, which was alluded to in the early years as to why he stuck around -- well that and Marvel Girl (Jean Grey).

Now Magneto is different. His views (at least defined again in the comic books), are entirely fear based -- he doesn't trust that people will do the right thing with the mutants. He was a holocaust survivor so he knew evil already (i believe his whole family was killed) Professor X, has much rosier idea. While you're kinda right about Magneto. Professor X isn't really a mindless rule follower. He has more faith that mutants and humans can come to a greater understanding. He's more of a civil rights leader tho.

I guess I need to dig out some comic books....like I said I agree with half your premise. The the rule follower part....

Anyway....thought provoking...I'm a total comic book geek...sad but true.

Magneto saw himself as a necessary agent in the evolution of humanity. He viewed non mutants as an impediment to mankind's evolution and progress. Mutants, Magneto concluded, were the rightful heirs to the future of humanity and non mutants were a dangerous, fearful morass which had to be removed, by force if necessary, to guarantee this inheritance.

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14-01-2013, 11:44 PM
RE: Villains are always genius rebels and Heroes are short sighted cops
I see your point. I think that a lot of people, myself included, see a shift toward a more totalitarian society and free thought an offense that must be stamped out. Think about modern university life. Or the corporate world. Or religion. People are freely accepting conformity without question and doing all they can to squelch people who won't accept that paradigm.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

- Joel Chastnoff, The 188th Crybaby Brigade
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