Violence is Golden
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27-01-2015, 09:31 AM
RE: Violence is Golden
(27-01-2015 08:32 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(27-01-2015 08:28 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Well, there have been cases of people that surrendered without any violence (not actively going to the police station but also not resisting/running away), and there have been cases of people voluntarily going to the police to confess a crime. I think this makes the argument much weaker.

It would if it was the norm.

We would need to look at statistics to see the norm. But in any case, the mere existence of such cases already undermines the sentence I quoted. And I think the quoted article makes some assumptions that seem too far-fetched to me. (It's the first time I use that word, I hope it fits lol).

For example, it claims that we're wrong, or that it's false for us, to say we abhor violence and the like and then it proceeds to make examples to prove this, such as the jail one, that I don't think support it, also because it applies to them a definition of violence that I don't necessarily agree with.

First it would be useful to define violence, because to me violence is a specific type of action/etc, but some other person might consider violent something that I find to be mild, and vice versa.

So two meanings can be:

1. Using or involving the use of physical force to cause harm or damage to someone or something
2. Causing or intending to cause damage, injury, or death, often when involving great force

They're kind of related, but none of these describe the basic meaning of "bringing someone to jail". It does describe "use of physical force" in many cases, but the definition above specifies "to cause harm or damage" and here it goes another way.

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27-01-2015, 09:41 AM
RE: Violence is Golden
Strict adherence to a policy of non-violence is a utopian ideal.

It would be really nice, but in the real world - it isn't of an evolutionary tactic with much survival value.

"Speak softly - and carry a big stick" - Theodore Roosevelt


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27-01-2015, 09:44 AM
RE: Violence is Golden
Definitions for violence are as shady as those for abuse.

One person may consider a slap violent, for another you'd have to draw blood, another yet considers verbal abuse violent.

And we don't need any statistics to know that most criminals don't march themselves to jail voluntarily.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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27-01-2015, 09:45 AM
RE: Violence is Golden
Sounds very Lumi like.

Where you proclaim that any act of intentionally desiring someone to do something to your liking is an act of violence against them. And that all children are abused.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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27-01-2015, 09:51 AM
RE: Violence is Golden
(27-01-2015 09:31 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  
(27-01-2015 08:32 AM)Dom Wrote:  It would if it was the norm.

We would need to look at statistics to see the norm. But in any case, the mere existence of such cases already undermines the sentence I quoted. And I think the quoted article makes some assumptions that seem too far-fetched to me. (It's the first time I use that word, I hope it fits lol).

For example, it claims that we're wrong, or that it's false for us, to say we abhor violence and the like and then it proceeds to make examples to prove this, such as the jail one, that I don't think support it, also because it applies to them a definition of violence that I don't necessarily agree with.

First it would be useful to define violence, because to me violence is a specific type of action/etc, but some other person might consider violent something that I find to be mild, and vice versa.

So two meanings can be:

1. Using or involving the use of physical force to cause harm or damage to someone or something
2. Causing or intending to cause damage, injury, or death, often when involving great force

They're kind of related, but none of these describe the basic meaning of "bringing someone to jail". It does describe "use of physical force" in many cases, but the definition above specifies "to cause harm or damage" and here it goes another way.

True, it isn't clarified. It seems to me that violence in the manner that he is discussing is any physical confrontation, or the threat of one, that has either the potential or the end goal of leading to death.

The overall point beyond that is that the success of even seemingly non violent means is ultimately based on the fact that either you or someone who is known to support you has a bigger stick (and a willingness to use it) than the person you are trying to persuade/coerce into doing something, like going to jail.

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27-01-2015, 10:11 AM
RE: Violence is Golden
At best violence is copper, green copper, not gold. This is my pacifism talking but i have to disagree it is golden

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27-01-2015, 10:21 AM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2015 10:57 AM by gofish!.)
RE: Violence is Golden
I look at it slightly differently. There are a range of threats out there, from criminals, psychpaths, totalitarian states, sharks, wolves, Millwall fans, rocks from space and global warming. Our need is to control these threats. We have learnt that violence is a tool, but a blunt one. Where we can, we strive to reduce the use of violence (e.g. killing sharks) through better understanding and better strategies.

We still don't have non-violent solutions to many of these problems. But that should neither blind us to the possibility that these exist, nor to the necessity of violence where they don't.

I hope we do this because we hold certain principles, like human and animal rights, dear.

I hope we don't do one or the other purely through polemic.

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N.B: I routinely make edits to posts to correct grammar or spelling, or to restate a point more clearly. I only notify edits if they materially change meaning.
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27-01-2015, 10:25 AM
RE: Violence is Golden
(27-01-2015 10:21 AM)gofish! Wrote:  I look at it slightly differently. There are a range of threats out there, from criminals, psychpaths, totalitarian states, sharks, wolves, Millwall fans, rocks from space..."

Fucking shark week. Cows kill more people every year 21:5 Dodgy

Fucking cows.



Poor misunderstood sharks. Weeping End rant.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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27-01-2015, 10:30 AM
RE: Violence is Golden
Statistically speaking my girlfriend or my mother are more likely to kill me than all of those dangerous animals combined Tongue

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27-01-2015, 10:56 AM
RE: Violence is Golden
(27-01-2015 10:25 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(27-01-2015 10:21 AM)gofish! Wrote:  I look at it slightly differently. There are a range of threats out there, from criminals, psychpaths, totalitarian states, sharks, wolves, Millwall fans, rocks from space..."

Fucking shark week. Cows kill more people every year 21:5 Dodgy

Fucking cows.



Poor misunderstood sharks. Weeping End rant.

Exactly!

"I don't mind being wrong...it's a time I get to learn something new..."
Me.
N.B: I routinely make edits to posts to correct grammar or spelling, or to restate a point more clearly. I only notify edits if they materially change meaning.
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