Violence is Golden
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28-01-2015, 03:55 AM
RE: Violence is Golden
(27-01-2015 04:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-01-2015 12:15 PM)Dom Wrote:  Leverage is not violence.

It's about the threat of violence. The inevitability of violence for non-compliance.

That is part of the human condition, and it has gotten a ton better over the centuries. We are not nearly as violent as we used to be.

Since we are social animals and live in groups, it is our nature to establish social order. We are not alone in this, other social animals do the same and some are a lot stricter than humans. Actions have consequences for all who live on this planet.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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28-01-2015, 05:34 AM
RE: Violence is Golden
(28-01-2015 03:55 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(27-01-2015 04:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  It's about the threat of violence. The inevitability of violence for non-compliance.

That is part of the human condition, and it has gotten a ton better over the centuries. We are not nearly as violent as we used to be.

Since we are social animals and live in groups, it is our nature to establish social order. We are not alone in this, other social animals do the same and some are a lot stricter than humans. Actions have consequences for all who live on this planet.

It hasn't gotten better, just more contained. More hidden. At a micro level, it appears different to those whose roles don't involve getting their hands dirty. At a macro level, it's the same as it's always been.

And as a previously mentioned noble savage nerd, I must clarify that by "always" what I mean is post civilization.

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28-01-2015, 09:11 AM
RE: Violence is Golden
(28-01-2015 05:34 AM)yakherder Wrote:  
(28-01-2015 03:55 AM)Dom Wrote:  That is part of the human condition, and it has gotten a ton better over the centuries. We are not nearly as violent as we used to be.

Since we are social animals and live in groups, it is our nature to establish social order. We are not alone in this, other social animals do the same and some are a lot stricter than humans. Actions have consequences for all who live on this planet.

It hasn't gotten better, just more contained. More hidden. At a micro level, it appears different to those whose roles don't involve getting their hands dirty. At a macro level, it's the same as it's always been.

And as a previously mentioned noble savage nerd, I must clarify that by "always" what I mean is post civilization.

It's rather arbitrary or not to declare if it shifting isn't or is better. That's just your stance here that it isn't "better"

If he is speaking solely of law inactions and societal enforcement I can see it. It sounded like he was about to take some extra steps would of that make no actual connection to interaction.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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28-01-2015, 09:32 AM
RE: Violence is Golden
The violence of the lambs...

They asked me to join the orchestra but I've renounced violins.

Bit of a rambly reply below, hope it makes sense:

I disagree. Society isn't founded on violence. Most people will comply with the law because they see that it is for the greater good. Only a small minority are gonna be scared into compliance by some sort of threat, IMO by far the vast majority of those who commit crimes do so *in spite* of the implied "threat of violence". The reason laws have consequences IMO *should be* (not necessarily *is*) that the consequences are the way that society protects itself from individuals deemed not to fit in, ideally by "re-educating" them but otherwise by punishment (e.g. confinement - hardly a very violent thing).

Thought experiment: let's killl everyone who commits a crime. i.e. no appeal, immediate removal of said person from society. We will definitely not be crime free even with such a draconian policy. So can it be said that our society functions because of the threat of violence? Is it not rather that society gets along any old how and if someone falls foul of the law bad things happen to them as some sort of a vague attempt at maintaining order?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-01-2015, 09:41 AM
RE: Violence is Golden
(28-01-2015 09:32 AM)morondog Wrote:  The violence of the lambs...

They asked me to join the orchestra but I've renounced violins.

Bit of a rambly reply below, hope it makes sense:

I disagree. Society isn't founded on violence. Most people will comply with the law because they see that it is for the greater good. Only a small minority are gonna be scared into compliance by some sort of threat, IMO by far the vast majority of those who commit crimes do so *in spite* of the implied "threat of violence". The reason laws have consequences IMO *should be* (not necessarily *is*) that the consequences are the way that society protects itself from individuals deemed not to fit in, ideally by "re-educating" them but otherwise by punishment (e.g. confinement - hardly a very violent thing).

Thought experiment: let's killl everyone who commits a crime. i.e. no appeal, immediate removal of said person from society. We will definitely not be crime free even with such a draconian policy. So can it be said that our society functions because of the threat of violence? Is it not rather that society gets along any old how and if someone falls foul of the law bad things happen to them as some sort of a vague attempt at maintaining order?

Unfortunately there are no statistics on how many crimes go uncomitted for fear of retribution. All we have our historical accounts of societies where no policing action was in place and roving bands of hunter- gatherers fighting for dominance.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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28-01-2015, 11:06 AM
RE: Violence is Golden
(28-01-2015 09:41 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(28-01-2015 09:32 AM)morondog Wrote:  The violence of the lambs...

They asked me to join the orchestra but I've renounced violins.

Bit of a rambly reply below, hope it makes sense:

I disagree. Society isn't founded on violence. Most people will comply with the law because they see that it is for the greater good. Only a small minority are gonna be scared into compliance by some sort of threat, IMO by far the vast majority of those who commit crimes do so *in spite* of the implied "threat of violence". The reason laws have consequences IMO *should be* (not necessarily *is*) that the consequences are the way that society protects itself from individuals deemed not to fit in, ideally by "re-educating" them but otherwise by punishment (e.g. confinement - hardly a very violent thing).

Thought experiment: let's killl everyone who commits a crime. i.e. no appeal, immediate removal of said person from society. We will definitely not be crime free even with such a draconian policy. So can it be said that our society functions because of the threat of violence? Is it not rather that society gets along any old how and if someone falls foul of the law bad things happen to them as some sort of a vague attempt at maintaining order?

Unfortunately there are no statistics on how many crimes go uncomitted for fear of retribution. All we have our historical accounts of societies where no policing action was in place and roving bands of hunter- gatherers fighting for dominance.

There are plenty of places where law is absent, and those places are hell on earth. Wanna lose your faith in humanity, watch what happens when you drop a cargo plane full of food into a village outside the presence of state sanctioned force.

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28-01-2015, 11:17 AM
RE: Violence is Golden
(28-01-2015 09:32 AM)morondog Wrote:  The violence of the lambs...

Big Grin

Quote:They asked me to join the orchestra but I've renounced violins.

Bit of a rambly reply below, hope it makes sense:

I disagree. Society isn't founded on violence.

It seems to me that society is founded on controlling violence.

Quote:Most people will comply with the law because they see that it is for the greater good.

I think it is more for self-interest.

Quote:Only a small minority are gonna be scared into compliance by some sort of threat,

I think it is about self-interest - not being penalized.

Quote:IMO by far the vast majority of those who commit crimes do so *in spite* of the implied "threat of violence". The reason laws have consequences IMO *should be* (not necessarily *is*) that the consequences are the way that society protects itself from individuals deemed not to fit in, ideally by "re-educating" them but otherwise by punishment (e.g. confinement - hardly a very violent thing).

Yes. Without penalties, laws will not be generally followed. Without the threat of violence, the penalties cannot be enforced.

Quote:Thought experiment: let's killl everyone who commits a crime. i.e. no appeal, immediate removal of said person from society. We will definitely not be crime free even with such a draconian policy. So can it be said that our society functions because of the threat of violence? Is it not rather that society gets along any old how and if someone falls foul of the law bad things happen to them as some sort of a vague attempt at maintaining order?

No one said any of this is perfect.

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28-01-2015, 11:50 AM
RE: Violence is Golden
(28-01-2015 11:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  
Quote:IMO by far the vast majority of those who commit crimes do so *in spite* of the implied "threat of violence". The reason laws have consequences IMO *should be* (not necessarily *is*) that the consequences are the way that society protects itself from individuals deemed not to fit in, ideally by "re-educating" them but otherwise by punishment (e.g. confinement - hardly a very violent thing).

Yes. Without penalties, laws will not be generally followed. Without the threat of violence, the penalties cannot be enforced.

This is the bit which I disagree with. I think *most* people will generally follow the law, provided it's decent and makes sense, because they see the benefit - without penalties. Even *with* enforcing the penalties via "threat of violence" or otherwise, people still commit crimes so I don't see how, if it's a threat, that works. Threat means something that the criminal will be afraid of and therefore will not commit the crime. If the law is backed by threat and the criminal is not afraid of the threat then the threat didn't work. Therefore the reason that society functions can't be the threat as far as I can see.

Sure, society needs a means to prevent the criminal element from influencing it - which I guess does rest on eventually a cop being prepared to pull a trigger on occasion - but I think personally that it's way overstating the importance of keeping criminals down, to say that the entire reason civilization works is because that cop and others like him are there to keep the baddies at bay. It's a negative view - what about all the people who build *up*, rather than those who prevent the tearing down? Sure, prevention of baddies is an honourable thing, but it's not the only thing.

I also hold the hope that one day - perhaps even soon - we *will* be sufficiently removed from our evolutionary roots that we will overcome our need to solve problems by bashing each other over the head.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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29-01-2015, 09:00 AM
RE: Violence is Golden
(28-01-2015 11:50 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(28-01-2015 11:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  Yes. Without penalties, laws will not be generally followed. Without the threat of violence, the penalties cannot be enforced.

This is the bit which I disagree with. I think *most* people will generally follow the law, provided it's decent and makes sense, because they see the benefit - without penalties.

That might last until people see that others benefit by not following a law.

Quote:Even *with* enforcing the penalties via "threat of violence" or otherwise, people still commit crimes so I don't see how, if it's a threat, that works.

It doesn't need to be perfect; it works most of the time for most people.

Quote:Threat means something that the criminal will be afraid of and therefore will not commit the crime. If the law is backed by threat and the criminal is not afraid of the threat then the threat didn't work. Therefore the reason that society functions can't be the threat as far as I can see.


No, the criminal made either a conscious decision based on risk/benefit or the act was impulsive and little, if any, thought was given to consequences.

Quote:Sure, society needs a means to prevent the criminal element from influencing it - which I guess does rest on eventually a cop being prepared to pull a trigger on occasion - but I think personally that it's way overstating the importance of keeping criminals down, to say that the entire reason civilization works is because that cop and others like him are there to keep the baddies at bay.

That's not actually the argument, just one aspect of it. There are negative consequences for not following the law and the only way to enforce them is with a big stick. The actual form of the stick is not important, but it is force.

Quote:It's a negative view - what about all the people who build *up*, rather than those who prevent the tearing down? Sure, prevention of baddies is an honourable thing, but it's not the only thing.

I also hold the hope that one day - perhaps even soon - we *will* be sufficiently removed from our evolutionary roots that we will overcome our need to solve problems by bashing each other over the head.

I think that is many generations in the future.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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