Virgin Birth: Failed Prophecy
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06-12-2014, 08:28 PM
RE: Virgin Birth: Failed Prophecy
Prophets and prophecies always make me laugh whether it's the virgin birth nonsense or..........




lost hammers.





Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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07-12-2014, 02:02 AM
RE: Virgin Birth: Failed Prophecy
(03-12-2014 08:55 AM)JonDarbyXIII Wrote:  Anyone else ever notice this?
Well, yes. But it's useless to point it out to theists. They go into a state of denial followed by an "I can't hear you" trance.

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07-12-2014, 02:43 AM
RE: Virgin Birth: Failed Prophecy
(03-12-2014 08:55 AM)JonDarbyXIII Wrote:  How is it that Christians use the virgin birth as one of their greatest examples of prophecy ...
My biggest problem with the "virgin birth" as the fulfillment of a prophecy is how did they confirm it?
  • Did they just take Mary's word for it? "Hey, I'm knocked up. God did it."
  • Did they just take Joseph's word for it? "My wife is pregnant out of wedlock and I haven't banged her yet. But don't worry. An angel told me in a dream that God did it."
  • Was some sort of post diagnosis of pregnancy/pre-birth medical examination done by a midwife or priest or someone else to confirm that Mary was (to use a medical term) virgo intacto.
  • Did Mary wear a chastity belt for X months prior to diagnosis? If so, who had the key?
I mean it's one thing to confirm a prophecy of a volcanic eruption, an earthquake, an invasion by a foreign army, but a virgin birth? I don't think so.

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07-12-2014, 07:25 PM
RE: Virgin Birth: Failed Prophecy
(07-12-2014 02:43 AM)f stop Wrote:  My biggest problem with the "virgin birth" as the fulfillment of a prophecy is how did they confirm it?
[list]
[*]Did they just take Mary's word for it? "Hey, I'm knocked up. God did it."
[*]Did they just take Joseph's word for it? "My wife is pregnant out of wedlock and I haven't banged her yet. But don't worry. An angel told me in a dream that God did it."
[*]Was some sort of post diagnosis of pregnancy/pre-birth medical examination done by a midwife or priest or someone else to confirm that Mary was (to use a medical term) virgo intacto.
[*]Did Mary wear a chastity belt for X months prior to diagnosis? If so, who had the key?

The answer is C. The Proto-evangelium of James says that Mary's midwife told a woman called Salome that she had just seen a virgin give birth.

"Then said Salome: AS THE LORD MY GOD LIVES, UNLESS I THRUST IN MY FINGER, AND SEARCH THE PARTS, I WILL NOT BELIEVE THAT A VIRGIN HAS BROUGHT FORTH.

And the midwife went in, and said to Mary: Show yourself; for no small controversy has arisen about you. AND SALOME PUT IN HER FINGER, AND CRIED OUT, AND SAID: WOE IS ME FOR MINE INIQUITY AND MINE UNBELIEF, BECAUSE I HAVE TEMPTED THE LIVING GOD; AND, BEHOLD, MY HAND IS DROPPING OFF AS IF BURNED WITH FIRE.

And she bent her knees before the Lord, saying: O God of my fathers, remember that I am the seed of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob; do not make a show of me to the sons of Israel, but restore me to the poor; for You know, O Lord, that in Your name I have performed my services, and that I have received my reward at Your hand. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by her, saying to her: Salome, Salome, the Lord has heard you. PUT YOUR HAND TO THE INFANT, AND CARRY IT, AND YOU WILL HAVE SAFETY AND JOY. And Salome went and carried it, saying: I will worship Him, because a great King has been born to Israel. AND, BEHOLD, SALOME WAS IMMEDIATELY CURED, and she went forth out of the cave justified."

QED

Doc
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07-12-2014, 09:29 PM
RE: Virgin Birth: Failed Prophecy
(07-12-2014 07:25 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  "Mary's midwife told a woman called Salome that she had just seen a virgin give birth.

"Then said Salome: AS THE LORD MY GOD LIVES, UNLESS I THRUST IN MY FINGER, AND SEARCH THE PARTS, I WILL NOT BELIEVE THAT A VIRGIN HAS BROUGHT FORTH.

"AND SALOME PUT IN HER FINGER, AND CRIED OUT, AND SAID: WOE IS ME FOR MINE INIQUITY AND MINE UNBELIEF
So after Mary had given birth Salome confirmed that Mary was still a virgin.

Isn't that stretching it?

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07-12-2014, 09:34 PM
RE: Virgin Birth: Failed Prophecy
Well.
That settles it then.

(I wondered who that was poking her head in the window of the manger scene.)

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-12-2014, 06:46 AM
RE: Virgin Birth: Failed Prophecy
(07-12-2014 09:29 PM)f stop Wrote:  
(07-12-2014 07:25 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  "Mary's midwife told a woman called Salome that she had just seen a virgin give birth.

"Then said Salome: AS THE LORD MY GOD LIVES, UNLESS I THRUST IN MY FINGER, AND SEARCH THE PARTS, I WILL NOT BELIEVE THAT A VIRGIN HAS BROUGHT FORTH.

"AND SALOME PUT IN HER FINGER, AND CRIED OUT, AND SAID: WOE IS ME FOR MINE INIQUITY AND MINE UNBELIEF
So after Mary had given birth Salome confirmed that Mary was still a virgin.

Isn't that stretching it?

Yes, a hymen can stretch without breaking. It's called the elastic hymen and can give the impression that a woman is still a virgin.

Doc
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08-12-2014, 08:33 AM
RE: Virgin Birth: Failed Prophecy
(05-12-2014 03:08 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Even better than a failed prophecy is a non-existent one. Matthew 2:23 says "... he (Jesus's father, Joseph) went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: He shall be called a Nazarene".

This prophecy is nowhere to be found in the OT, Apocrypha or Pseudo-epigraphia. Matthew seems to have pulled this prophecy from an obscure part of his anatomy to justify the fact that Jesus came from Nazareth, a town of no account.

The closest I've heard are all references to the Nazarite vow, and some people say this is evidenced in Jesus by his refusal to drink from the sponge when he was on the cross. Of course, this brings up a couple of other problems. 1) he was in regular contact with the dead which went against the Nazarite vow and 2) he requested to drink from the sponge later.

(05-12-2014 03:08 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Incidentally, JonDarbyXIII, are you the great, great, great... descendant of John Nelson Darby, the founder of the Plymouth Brethren and well-known loony?

I'm from a long, proud line of loonies, religious and otherwise. To my knowledge John Nelson Darby was not one of them.

(07-12-2014 02:43 AM)f stop Wrote:  My biggest problem with the "virgin birth" as the fulfillment of a prophecy is how did they confirm it?
[list]
[*]Did they just take Mary's word for it? "Hey, I'm knocked up. God did it."
[*]Did they just take Joseph's word for it? "My wife is pregnant out of wedlock and I haven't banged her yet. But don't worry. An angel told me in a dream that God did it."

One of my problems with the believability of the narrative itself is the fact that Mary, an unwed Jew, gets pregnant, and none of the uber-fundamentalists of the day seem to have even brought up that she should be stoned. The best excuse she can come up with is "God did it," and no one seems to question it. Yet, if it were generally accepted that she was impregnated by the Holy Spook, then why would anyone even begin to question Jesus' divine origins?

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08-12-2014, 10:27 AM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2014 11:06 AM by docskeptic.)
RE: Virgin Birth: Failed Prophecy
(08-12-2014 08:33 AM)JonDarbyXIII Wrote:  One of my problems with the believability of the narrative itself is the fact that Mary, an unwed Jew, gets pregnant, and none of the uber-fundamentalists of the day seem to have even brought up that she should be stoned. The best excuse she can come up with is "God did it," and no one seems to question it. Yet, if it were generally accepted that she was impregnated by the Holy Spook, then why would anyone even begin to question Jesus' divine origins?

Jon,
I do think there was an uproar over Mary's pregnancy out of wedlock. It's just not recorded in the gospels, but may be implied. Remember, in Luke 1:39, when things were likely hotting up "At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. "

Why did she hurry? Why did she stay with an obscure relative like Elizabeth, instead of with her sisters (we know she had at least two)? Unless it was to find a place away from Nazareth where she could stay for 3 months or so to allow time for the uproar to die down. Remember, she travelled all the way from Nazareth in Galilee to "the hill country of Judea". Apparently, the ploy worked. Even so, according to the gospel, the family travelled to Bethlehem for the birth and did not return to Nazareth till after the death of Herod the Great.

Doc
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