Virgin Mary and free will
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28-03-2015, 10:25 PM
Virgin Mary and free will
I love bringing up free will to theists as a way to show them just how ridiculous their worldview actually is. But I got to thinking about a different angle today.

Free will, at least as defined by a theist, would be the ability to make a choice. As Neo says, the problem is choice. You have the freedom to choose to do whatever you want and their god won't interfere in anyway. He will not make you do anything, but if your choice is against his wishes, then you will have to suffer the consequences.

What about the "virgin" Mary? Did she have a choice in the matter? Did Gawd sit her down in a red leather chair and offer the red or blue pill? No, he knocked her up without consent. She didn't have a say in the matter. She was raped and impregnated by this holy spirit (I just love how autocorrect automatically capitalizes holy spirit, BTW).

Now, we all know the virgin story is bullshit anyway, but how does this not bother theists who follow this fable? Her free will was violated, as was the pharaoh's, who had his heart hardened.

Free will in the theist worldview is but a joke.

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29-03-2015, 12:02 AM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
What in the bible makes you think we have Free will?

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

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29-03-2015, 12:13 AM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
(29-03-2015 12:02 AM)Drich Wrote:  What in the bible makes you think we have Free will?

What anywhere makes you think you're the only christian being addressed? You got a problem with the free will argument, then take it up with the theists who use it, not the atheists who just have the temerity to exist in a universe in which your fellow christians sometimes use that argument.
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29-03-2015, 12:19 AM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
(29-03-2015 12:13 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  
(29-03-2015 12:02 AM)Drich Wrote:  What in the bible makes you think we have Free will?

What anywhere makes you think you're the only christian being addressed? You got a problem with the free will argument, then take it up with the theists who use it, not the atheists who just have the temerity to exist in a universe in which your fellow christians sometimes use that argument.

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29-03-2015, 05:41 AM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
(29-03-2015 12:02 AM)Drich Wrote:  What in the bible makes you think we have Free will?

So you wouldn't use the free will excuse as the (incomplete) answer to the problem of evil?

So god's simply evil or anything god does can simply be defined as good?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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29-03-2015, 05:48 AM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
(28-03-2015 10:25 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I love bringing up free will to theists as a way to show them just how ridiculous their worldview actually is. But I got to thinking about a different angle today.

Free will, at least as defined by a theist, would be the ability to make a choice. As Neo says, the problem is choice. You have the freedom to choose to do whatever you want and their god won't interfere in anyway. He will not make you do anything, but if your choice is against his wishes, then you will have to suffer the consequences.

What about the "virgin" Mary? Did she have a choice in the matter? Did Gawd sit her down in a red leather chair and offer the red or blue pill? No, he knocked her up without consent. She didn't have a say in the matter. She was raped and impregnated by this holy spirit (I just love how autocorrect automatically capitalizes holy spirit, BTW).

Now, we all know the virgin story is bullshit anyway, but how does this not bother theists who follow this fable? Her free will was violated, as was the pharaoh's, who had his heart hardened.

Free will in the theist worldview is but a joke.

Yes, it is a joke. A lion could choose to eat fruit, vegetables, grass, but the zebra must be the one to suffer for it to live. The example of the lion doesn't involve human choice, it doesn't even involve forcing the lion's choice, just making one choice less appealing to reduce suffering. God doesn't do that either, god is terminally absent and that's why the choice excuse fails.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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29-03-2015, 06:55 AM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
(29-03-2015 12:02 AM)Drich Wrote:  What in the bible makes you think we have Free will?

Who said anything about the bible? Shoo!

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29-03-2015, 07:31 AM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
There is no contradiction. The rape of Mary by the holy ghost is no different than the rape of any other woman, which happens a gazillion times a day in this world that the Christians think is so "perfect." Free will isn't supposed to allow you to choose what someone else will do to you, whether that be club you on the head from behind to steal your money, or drop a bomb on your house, or rape you. Free will just allows you to do bad things to other people. Mary had free will because she could have chosen to knife one of those innkeepers who wouldn't give her a room. Free will means that she could have chosen to pick up a bit of extra silver by selling sexual favors to Roman merchants, and then told Joseph that a holy ghost did it. Hmmm. Maybe she wasn't raped after all???

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29-03-2015, 08:35 AM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
She could have chosen to have ... gasp ... an abortion, right? Hahaha!

Theists wouldn't call it rape, and that's where you can catch them in their tangled web of apologetics. If it wasn't rape, then that means Mary was just chosen to carry a baby, but she wasn't asked if she wanted to do it. She wasn't given the choice, her free will was violated, as was her uterus.

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29-03-2015, 08:50 AM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
Well, if we're talking specifically about the Gospels, to be fair, she did say yes.

Not only she said yes to having a baby and naming it Jesus, but she also said yes after the angel explained the "how", since she was objecting that she never had a man. That's Luke 1:26-38.

That is, if we are discussing about what the Gospel says literally, then I think it's fairly clear.

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