Virgin Mary and free will
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29-03-2015, 10:42 AM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
(29-03-2015 10:10 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  
(29-03-2015 09:46 AM)unfogged Wrote:  I don't think it is quite so clear. Saying "I am willing" after being told that this was going to happen isn't really the same as saying "yes". It isn't like god asked first, he flat out told her how it would be. The fact that she submitted could be acceptance of the inevitable and not actually consent.

Let's be reasonable here: "I'm willing" is certainly not a "no". You can argue she didn't just say "yes", but if you're saying that she wasn't really accepting, I cannot agree with you there.

And as far as the acceptance issue goes, there's nothing to suggest that it is as you said.

To be honest, I don't think this passage is the best example the OP could have chosen.

My problem is with Gabriel telling her first how it's going to be. He doesn't asked her if it is OK, he says this is what's going to happen to you. What else could she say to an angel delivering a message and request from a petty god known for wiping out an entire civilization because he fucked up?

And the best line from the passage? "The Holy Spirit will come on you." A holy money shot if you ask me.

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29-03-2015, 10:44 AM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
(29-03-2015 09:17 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  
(29-03-2015 05:41 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  So you wouldn't use the free will excuse as the (incomplete) answer to the problem of evil?

So god's simply evil or anything god does can simply be defined as good?

As far as I can recall, Drich leans to god being good by definition, no matter what. He dismisses any understanding of morality that comes from humans as just "popular opinion" and refuses to even call god's commandments morality at all, instead demanding we all play along and call it "righteousness," because he's an arrogant sod who thinks he gets to dictate the terms of the game.

This position has led him to defend genocide and slavery- the latter through a series of bizarre, poorly thought out tu coque fallacies-, to pray that people are struck with diseases so that their vulnerability might lead them to god and, on one memorable occasion, to assert that homosexuality is a worse thing than slavery, because god prattles on about the former being bad in the bible, while the latter is perfectly fine in the same book.

That's the kind of shit you're missing by not being a part of AF, folks. Tongue

More or less correct.. Where you are less correct is that I am no longer apart of AF... Sew,they will be getting a double dose to get caught up.

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29-03-2015, 10:46 AM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
(29-03-2015 09:46 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(29-03-2015 08:50 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Well, if we're talking specifically about the Gospels, to be fair, she did say yes.

Not only she said yes to having a baby and naming it Jesus, but she also said yes after the angel explained the "how", since she was objecting that she never had a man. That's Luke 1:26-38.

That is, if we are discussing about what the Gospel says literally, then I think it's fairly clear.

I don't think it is quite so clear. Saying "I am willing" after being told that this was going to happen isn't really the same as saying "yes". It isn't like god asked first, he flat out told her how it would be. The fact that she submitted could be acceptance of the inevitable and not actually consent.

Just because one knows an out come does not mean it was scripted by the knower..

Ever read a book then seen the movie? Just because you know the plot line does not mean you wrote the screen play.

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29-03-2015, 10:49 AM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
(29-03-2015 09:49 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(29-03-2015 09:30 AM)Drich Wrote:  What makes you think there is a problem with evil?

Why can't evil be apart of God's intended plan?

There's not, the problem of suffering in the world is clear proof that god doesn't exist. It's a problem if you wish to assert a deity has any influence in the world or that it's part of his plan. How would the world functioning with no supernatural influence be distinguishable from this alleged plan?
Why in your opinion does suffering mean God does not exist?

Maybe suffering in the world means your understanding of God does not exist. It however does not mean God can't exist outside the box you want Him to live in.

That is like saying just because you have an empty fish tank that no fish can exist.. The only thing you can actually say is no fish live in your tank.

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29-03-2015, 10:52 AM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
(29-03-2015 10:16 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  
(29-03-2015 09:29 AM)Drich Wrote:  And what makes you think I am trying to suppress anyother Christian's beliefs? There is nothing in believing freewill that would invalidate ones faith.

I simply pointed out that free will is not a biblical precept.

I never said you were suppressing anything. What I said was that your contention here has nothing to do with the argument in the OP, since he agrees with you that free will is an ineffective defense of christian theism, though for different reasons. You're free to point out that free will isn't a biblical concept, but that doesn't stop other christians from using the free will defense, which means it's entirely rational to have some refutation of it.

What you want to be doing is pointing that out to the christians who use the free will argument, not the atheists who construct arguments against it.
You're right,That is if my intention was to suppress that arguement. Again I have no issue with christians who believe in free will as it is not a matter of any importance. I am simply pointing out it is not a bible based precept. In fact the opposite is true.

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29-03-2015, 10:57 AM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
(29-03-2015 10:49 AM)Drich Wrote:  
(29-03-2015 09:49 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  There's not, the problem of suffering in the world is clear proof that god doesn't exist. It's a problem if you wish to assert a deity has any influence in the world or that it's part of his plan. How would the world functioning with no supernatural influence be distinguishable from this alleged plan?
Why in your opinion does suffering mean God does not exist?

Maybe suffering in the world means your understanding of God does not exist. It however does not mean God can't exist outside the box you want Him to live in.

That is like saying just because you have an empty fish tank that no fish can exist.. The only thing you can actually say is no fish live in your tank.
Maybe you can find no rationale that would make sense of suffering.

How would you distinguish between a world with no supernatural force executing a plan and a world with a supernatural force executing a plan?

Do both of these propositions appear the same?

If so, then this is not an explanation for anything, it's an unfalsifiable excuse for a world that has no evidence for god.

There is no reason to assert that god is an explanation for anything.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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29-03-2015, 10:57 AM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
(29-03-2015 10:10 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  
(29-03-2015 09:46 AM)unfogged Wrote:  I don't think it is quite so clear. Saying "I am willing" after being told that this was going to happen isn't really the same as saying "yes". It isn't like god asked first, he flat out told her how it would be. The fact that she submitted could be acceptance of the inevitable and not actually consent.

Let's be reasonable here: "I'm willing" is certainly not a "no". You can argue she didn't just say "yes", but if you're saying that she wasn't really accepting, I cannot agree with you there.

And as far as the acceptance issue goes, there's nothing to suggest that it is as you said.

I understand what you are saying but when I read the passage it comes across to me that Mary is submitting, not accepting. It would be easier if the book was actually written in a way that wasn't always so open to interpretation.

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29-03-2015, 10:58 AM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
(29-03-2015 10:49 AM)Drich Wrote:  That is like saying just because you have an empty fish tank that no fish can exist.. The only thing you can actually say is no fish live in your tank.

That is like saying man standing on toilet is high on pot. The only thing you can actually say is don't splash the toilet lid.

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29-03-2015, 11:06 AM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
(29-03-2015 10:44 AM)Drich Wrote:  More or less correct.. Where you are less correct is that I am no longer apart of AF... Sew,they will be getting a double dose to get caught up.

Can you just try to use "a part" and "apart" correctly as you constantly get these mixed up and they make the sentence appear to mean the exact opposite of your intended meaning. Much like Godschild with his "want" and "won't".

It's a small effort Dripshit and it would at least be a tiny example of you accepting you are, in fact, wrong for once.

I won't hold my breath.

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29-03-2015, 12:06 PM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
Why is Mister Sillybones banned here too, now? Tongue
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