Virgin Mary and free will
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29-03-2015, 12:15 PM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
(29-03-2015 10:42 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(29-03-2015 10:10 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Let's be reasonable here: "I'm willing" is certainly not a "no". You can argue she didn't just say "yes", but if you're saying that she wasn't really accepting, I cannot agree with you there.

And as far as the acceptance issue goes, there's nothing to suggest that it is as you said.

To be honest, I don't think this passage is the best example the OP could have chosen.

My problem is with Gabriel telling her first how it's going to be. He doesn't asked her if it is OK, he says this is what's going to happen to you. What else could she say to an angel delivering a message and request from a petty god known for wiping out an entire civilization because he fucked up?

And the best line from the passage? "The Holy Spirit will come on you." A holy money shot if you ask me.

True he didn't, but she doesn't express any doubt about accepting, that's what I was contesting in the previous posts. Tongue

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29-03-2015, 01:01 PM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
(29-03-2015 09:49 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(29-03-2015 09:30 AM)Drich Wrote:  What makes you think there is a problem with evil?

Why can't evil be apart of God's intended plan?

There's not, the problem of suffering in the world is clear proof that god doesn't exist. ...

Suffering does not prove God does not exist. Suffering proves that if God exists, he is a psychopath. I.e., there could be a God who is not the Christian God.

Drish seems to be almost admitting that God is evil, since evil is part of his plan. If God is all-powerful, and there is evil, then evil only exists because God wanted it to, and therefore he's evil.

Of course, the other possibility is that God is not all-powerful. If God is a bumbling nincompoop then he might actually be well-intentioned, but just incompetent to keep evil at bay. While the Christian God is clearly inconsistent with the world as it exists, a bumbling idiot God is quite consistent with the world we live in.

There's also the possibility that God created the universe five seconds ago, with all our memories in place, and will annihilate it in five seconds from now, and all this imagined suffering will only have lasted ten seconds.

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el cielo por alas,
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29-03-2015, 01:25 PM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
(29-03-2015 12:15 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  
(29-03-2015 10:42 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  My problem is with Gabriel telling her first how it's going to be. He doesn't asked her if it is OK, he says this is what's going to happen to you. What else could she say to an angel delivering a message and request from a petty god known for wiping out an entire civilization because he fucked up?

And the best line from the passage? "The Holy Spirit will come on you." A holy money shot if you ask me.

True he didn't, but she doesn't express any doubt about accepting, that's what I was contesting in the previous posts. Tongue

Understood, but of course, this is a passage that was "written" decades after the "fact" and there is nothing that says it recorded every emotion and reaction she had. All I'm saying is it feels more to me like she didn't have a choice rather than making the decision on her own.

And even if I chose an inferior example, one good thing came out of this: Drich is now banned. Thumbsup

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29-03-2015, 02:34 PM
RE: Virgin Mary and free will
(29-03-2015 01:25 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(29-03-2015 12:15 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  True he didn't, but she doesn't express any doubt about accepting, that's what I was contesting in the previous posts. Tongue

Understood, but of course, this is a passage that was "written" decades after the "fact" and there is nothing that says it recorded every emotion and reaction she had. All I'm saying is it feels more to me like she didn't have a choice rather than making the decision on her own.

And even if I chose an inferior example, one good thing came out of this: Drich is now banned. Thumbsup

For the mods! ThumbsupThumbsupThumbsup

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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