"Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
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06-10-2015, 07:35 PM
RE: "Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
(06-10-2015 07:09 PM)GotIssues Wrote:  "Second Temple Judaism was a visionary culture. People claimed to see things all the time."

References ?

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06-10-2015, 09:37 PM
RE: "Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
Book of Daniel, Revelations, numerous references to "visions" in the Bible. You can discount the historicity of Acts but you can't deny the depiction of visions that Paul and Peter were said to have experienced. Obviously, visions were a common theme throughout Jewish and Christian literature.
http://www.equinoxpub.com/blog/2011/04/c...urrection/
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06-10-2015, 09:43 PM (This post was last modified: 06-10-2015 10:02 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: "Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
(06-10-2015 09:37 PM)GotIssues Wrote:  Book of Daniel, Revelations, numerous references to "visions" in the Bible. You can discount the historicity of Acts but you can't deny the depiction of visions that Paul and Peter were said to have experienced. Obviously, visions were a common theme throughout Jewish and Christian literature.
http://www.equinoxpub.com/blog/2011/04/c...urrection/

There were hundreds of "Books of Revelations". They were not Jewish texts, in general. I can discount anything written in "Christian" anything. I asked for references from REAL scholars.
Your reference says "Second Temple Judaism was a visionary culture, in which people believed that people saw appearances of God and angels, and had visions and dreams in which God and angels appeared to them. (p. 488)". No Jew ever said they "saw" Yahweh.

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06-10-2015, 10:00 PM
RE: "Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
(06-10-2015 09:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 09:37 PM)GotIssues Wrote:  Book of Daniel, Revelations, numerous references to "visions" in the Bible. You can discount the historicity of Acts but you can't deny the depiction of visions that Paul and Peter were said to have experienced. Obviously, visions were a common theme throughout Jewish and Christian literature.
http://www.equinoxpub.com/blog/2011/04/c...urrection/

There were hundreds of "Books of Revelations". They were not Jewish texts, in general. I can discount anything written in "Christian" anything. I asked for references from REAL scholars.

Exactly what do you take issue with? You don't consider Maurice Casey a real scholar? How do you figure that?
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06-10-2015, 10:05 PM (This post was last modified: 06-10-2015 10:20 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: "Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
(06-10-2015 10:00 PM)GotIssues Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 09:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There were hundreds of "Books of Revelations". They were not Jewish texts, in general. I can discount anything written in "Christian" anything. I asked for references from REAL scholars.

Exactly what do you take issue with? You don't consider Maurice Casey a real scholar? How do you figure that?

Everything. I take issue with everything. Casey was no scholar of the Ancient Near East or Hebrew culture. He wasn't even a mainstream NT scholar. "Exalted" doesn't mean "exalted to heaven".
Have you read Ehrman's "How Jesus became God, The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee". You didn't read the link, and Jewish apocalyptic heroes didn't "go to heaven".
Acts wasn't written before the gospels. The gospels didn't say they (groups of people) were "seeing (mass) visions''.

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06-10-2015, 11:14 PM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2015 12:03 AM by GotIssues.)
RE: "Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
(06-10-2015 10:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Everything. I take issue with everything. Casey was no scholar of the Ancient Near East or Hebrew culture. He wasn't even a mainstream NT scholar.

Genetic fallacy. As if being "mainstream" makes someone a better scholar. Exactly what's wrong with the arguments in the link I gave?

In case you're interested, Casey has a whole section in his book dedicated to Jewish beliefs in resurrection starting on page 466. https://books.google.com/books?id=lXK0au...&q&f=false

Quote:"Exalted" doesn't mean "exalted to heaven". Have you read Ehrman's "How Jesus became God, The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee".


Yes. Have you read it? Chapter 6 is entitled “The Beginning of Christology Christ as Exalted to Heaven

“These particular preliterary traditions are consistent in their view: Christ is said to have been exalted to heaven at his resurrection and to have been made the Son of God at that stage of his existence. In this view, Jesus was not the Son of God who was sent from heaven to earth; he was the human who was exalted at the end of his earthly life to become the Son of God and was made, then and there, into a divine being.” pg. 163

This conception – that Jesus ascended directly from death to Heaven – has often been termed “exaltation Christology”, the belief that Jesus went straight “from grave to glory”. As A.W. Zwiep summarizes the belief (in Ascension of the Messiah, 1997: 130):

the general conviction in the earliest Christian preaching is that, as of the day of his resurrection, Jesus was in heaven, seated at the right hand of God. Resurrection and exaltation were regarded as two sides of one coin…
https://books.google.com/books?id=QIW7Jy...&q&f=false

Quote:You didn't read the link, and Jewish apocalyptic heroes didn't "go to heaven".

Exactly which "Jewish apocalyptic heroes" are we talking about?

In 2 Enoch, written possibly around the time of Jesus, we learn one opinion about what happened to Enoch when he was taken up into the divine realm (2 En. 22.1–10).

Elijah was assumed into heaven.

Some Jewish texts are ambiguous when it comes to Moses' fate.

. . . a cloud suddenly standing over him, he disappeared in a ravine. But he has written in the sacred books that he has died, fearing that because of his surpassing virtue they might dare to say that he had returned to the divine.
( Josephus - Ant. IV, 326)

"Others say: Moses did not die but stands and serves on high."
(Siphre on Deuteronomy, Piska 357)

And in the view of the author of 2 Maccabees 2:21, the martyrs appear from heaven - "appearances from heaven to those who had gloriously performed brave deeds for Judaism."

Evidently, the martyrs received a new "body" in heaven.

2 Maccabees 7:11
It was from Heaven that I received these; for the sake of his laws I disregard them; from him I hope to receive them again.”

Quote:Acts wasn't written before the gospels.


I know that.

Quote:The gospels didn't say they (groups of people) were "seeing (mass) visions''.

1 Cor 15:6
After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

I never said the gospels say groups of people were seeing mass visions but the Bible, both the OT and NT, are full of individuals seeing "visions". I'm not sure how any rational person taking an objective approach to the texts can deny this.
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06-10-2015, 11:45 PM (This post was last modified: 06-10-2015 11:50 PM by GotIssues.)
RE: "Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
(06-10-2015 09:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Your reference says "Second Temple Judaism was a visionary culture, in which people believed that people saw appearances of God and angels, and had visions and dreams in which God and angels appeared to them. (p. 488)". No Jew ever said they "saw" Yahweh.

The word ōphthē is used to describe the appearance of God to the patriarchs numerous times in the LXX. H.J de Jonge divides the way the
word was used into 6 categories.

(1) In some cases we are told that an anthropomorphic figure
appeared materially and visibly and spoke with a human voice, some-
times at great length For example the appearance of God to Abraham at
the oak of Mamre - Gen 18:1 LXX Furthermore, Gen 16:3 LXX, 17:1 LXX
(cf v 22), 35:9 LXX (cf v 13), Judg 6:12 LXX (cf vv 11 and 21), 2 Macc 3:25-30.

(2) In other cases the phenomenon appeared visually and acoustically
just as real as in the cases just mentioned, but it was a dream, the con-
tents of which are interpreted as a theophany An example is the appearance
of God to Jacob at Bethel above the ladder between heaven and
earth - Gen 31:13 LXX, Gen 35:1 LXX Further examples occur in Gen 26:24 LXX,
48:3 LXX, 3 Kings 3:5 LXX, 9:2 LXX, 11:9 LXX, 2 Chron 7:12 LXX.

It is important that not all these cases explicitly say that a dream
is referred to Genesis three times mentions the theophany to Jacob,
without saying that it took place m a dream, while the reference is evidently
to Jacob's dream at Bethel - Gen 31:13 LXX, 35:1 LXX and 48:3 LXX.

(3) There are cases in which, according to the biblical account, the theophany certainly
took place in everyday reality and was coupled with an intelligible utterance of God, but
in which the visual phenomenon was not anthropomorphic but physical, such as a flame
or a cloud This is how the appearance of God to Moses in the burning bush is represented -
Fire is referred to Exod 3:2 LXX and Deut 33:16 LXX a cloud in Exod 16:10 LXX, Num 14:10 LXX
16:19 LXX, 16:42 LXX and 20:6 LXX.

(4) There are cases in which God is said to have appeared but without a personal form or even
a voice, but exclusively through the physical phenomenon of fire or cloud - Fire is mentioned
in Lev 9:4 LXX, 6:23 LXX, and Ezekiel the Tragic Poet, Exagoge 235, the last passage is dependent
on Ex 14:24 LXX. A cloud is mentioned in Lev 16:2 LXX.

(5) There are references to appearances in some cases in which nothing at all could be seen, but a
voice alone uttered the divine message The voice which restrained Abraham from killing Isaac is
referred to m the Septuagint in the words "the Lord appeared" - Gen 22:4 LXX. Further examples
occur in Gen 12:7 LXX, 26:2 LXX.

(6) Finally there are references to God's appearances when there is no indication of any visible form or
of the hearing of a voice, but that God's power and favor were made manifest in the course of earthly
affairs. A psalm says, for example, that when God has taken away the indignity from Jerusalem and
freed it from its enemies, "he will appear in his glory" - PS 101:17 LXX, 83,8 LXX See also Isa 40:5 LXX,
60:2 LXX, 66:5 LXX, Jer 38:3 LXX (31:3 MT) All these passages describe the coming of a period of
salvation, but Jer 38:3 LXX has the aorist (κύριος ωφΟη) instead of the future tense Isa 60:2 LXX shows
that there is no difference between the appearance of God's glory and that of God himself. This is not a
suggestion of a theophany in the strict sense The word "appear" (όφθήναι) is purely metaphorical.

H. J. de Jonge, Visionary Experience and the Historical Origins of Christianity
https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstre...sequence=1
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07-10-2015, 03:57 AM
RE: "Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
Uh-oh, Bucky. You got a live one. Wink

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07-10-2015, 04:11 AM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2015 05:30 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: "Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
So yet another CHRISTIAN believer NT writer you present as an expert on older Hebrew culture. Hahahaha. I don't care what he says. Your premise is patently false. Acts were not ''early sources". They were not 'earlier' than the gospels. The gospels say nothing about "visions" of a god. No Jew thought of Jesus as a god, and the early Christians were JEWS for decades, if not centuries. At the end of the 1st Century, the High Priest required the Expulsion Curses to be read as the members of the Way subsect of JEWS (Christians) were still going to the synagogues. The Jews did not believe in an afterlife until very late in the apocalyptic period. Voices and other "theophanies" are not "visions". HJ de Jonge also is not an expert in OT or Hebrew anything. He's a professor of NT, NOT OT. There is a vast difference. All your examples above are not "visions" and are not even remotely similar to what is described in the NT.

There is no mainstream scholar that claims there was a tradition of "visions" in which the resurrection falls. Jesus was not a god until much later, and certainly never thought of a equivalent to Yahweh. The Hebrew notion was that no one could look on Yahweh and live. It would REALLY help if these people knew something about what they were talking and stuck to their own fields of expertise.
All Casey does is repeat the same old same old believer tripe about what he claims (with almost no references EXCEPT to the Bible) about what his opinions are about what Christians believed. They were Jews. Jews didn't believe in people going to heaven. In his Christmas sermon in 400 CE, John Chrysostom tells his congregation to stop going to synagogue. I simply don't buy it. The gospels say nothing about "visions". They are consistent with the concept of Jewish "shades" and Sheol being the place of afterlife. Paul thought only the saved were immortal. So you have two people who present Christian views of sources they are not expert in. I don't buy it. It's not consistent with ancient Hebrew thought. The idea of "afterlife" changed radically during the post-Exilic period as it came closer to the millennial change, but Jews did not "see" Yahweh. Ever. Exodus 33:20 "But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

Try reading "The Trouble with Resurrection". http://www.amazon.com/Trouble-Resurrecti...1598150200
He says nothing about "visions". It simply does not fit with Hebrew culture of the late apocalyptic period. Theophanies are not (corporeal) "visions". Except for #6 above. all the examples are not 2nd Temple period, and they don't claim to be a "vision of a god". You're obviously conflating two entirely different concepts to support an agenda. You present what you claim are examples of "Second Temple Period Judaism" which are not from the Second Temple period. Which is it ? And what is it about Christian NT writers that gives them any expertise about Hebrew culture before the period they claim to know about and accept all the usual Christian *beliefs* as facts from ? If you're going to try to tell us that "visions" fit organically into Hebrew culture, then at least give us information from Jewish (OT period) / Hebrew experts. Do archaeologists (any) or Drs. Richard Elliott Friedman, or William M. Schniedewind say anything about a tradition of "visions". Nope. Nothing.

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07-10-2015, 05:22 AM
RE: "Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
(06-10-2015 11:14 PM)GotIssues Wrote:  
Quote:Acts wasn't written before the gospels.


I know that.

Then why did you try to imply that they were "earliest sources" ?

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