"Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
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07-10-2015, 10:37 AM
RE: "Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
(07-10-2015 10:34 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(06-10-2015 02:15 PM)GotIssues Wrote:  I agree. The whole point of the post is that it pretty much debunks the later empty tomb and "bodily" resurrection of Jesus found in the later gospels.

Yeah, with the gospels coming several decades after the first epistles, it certainly makes it entirely possible that they were fabricated to bolster Paul's beliefs.

Historicity is one of those things I've learned not to debate with Christians.

True. An empty tomb does not a resurrection make

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

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07-10-2015, 10:38 AM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2015 10:54 AM by GotIssues.)
RE: "Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
(07-10-2015 09:14 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Is not an argument. The fact is, "exalted apocalytic heroes" do not necessarily end up in heaven. I suspected you knew nothing about the period. Now I know for sure.


Says the guy who mentions Bart Ehrman's book without actually reading it....

Noticed you left that bit out of your reply again. Haha!

Quote:How typical knee jerk of a Christian, everything is a "strawman". Everything. Yet no actual linguistic reply to the fact that you used the Greek word incorrectly, and ALL you could come up with (after essentially plagiarizing one) were two NT people talking about OT themes, and then placed almost all of them in the wrong period.


Exactly how did I use the Greek word incorrectly and what are your credentials in Koine Greek? The Second Temple Period spans from 515 BCE to 70 CE. Did the visions that people claimed to have just disappear in that span of time? Since Daniel is a 2nd century BCE text it falls clearly within the range. Oh, and it's not plagiarizing when you cite and link your source. Spot the difference.

Quote:I don't have to explain "appearances" if the Greek word doesn't mean "appearances".


Ok what English translation are you using because every one I can find translates the word like this:

“For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he ὤφθη appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that, he ὤφθη appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he ὤφθη appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he ὤφθη appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.”

Quote:Straw man argument. When I said "earliest sources" I meant Paul's letters. Thanks.

Quote:1. That's not what a strawman is, and

When you misrepresent someone's position in order to make it easier to attack then its a straw man argument. That's exactly what you did.

Quote:2. YOU did use acts which is FAR from earliest, and the gospels say nothing about visions.

I never said Acts is part of the earliest sources. I used Acts because its the only place in the NT that describes the Risen Christ's appearance to Paul. I'm not arguing that Acts is historically reliable but I'm using it to show that the appearance to Paul was portrayed by Luke to be a "heavenly vision" Acts 26:19. This has been the standard Orthodox position of Christianity for about 2,000 years. Paul sees a vision on the Damascus road, converts, then starts preaching the Gospel. You keep on ignoring Paul's own admission to having "visions" in 2 Cor 12:1 and that IS found in the earliest sources.

Quote:Your reference said precisely that.


The Casey reference says Jews thought Jesus was God? Where?

Quote:Unfortunately for ignorants with only Christian backgrounds, such as you, is is precisely on topic. These are JEWS we're talking about, and they lived in that environment and thought as JEWS. It is the height if ignorance to deny their environment

Why do you presume to know my background? I still don't see what you're getting at. There are numerous references to Jewish people having visions throughout the Hebrew Bible. How can you deny this?

Quote:Nice. Now you change your definition to move your goal-posts, AFTER you have been shown your translations and context are all wrong. Of course they are "subjective experiences". But "visions" are "sightings". That's what the word means.


Not necessarily. These can be "visions" in the mind.

1) to see with the eyes
2) to see with the mind, to perceive, know
3) to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
4) to see, to look to
4a) to take heed, beware
4b) to care for, pay heed to
5) I was seen, showed myself, appeared
http://lexiconcordance.com/greek/3708.html

Quote:How utterly typical. No. We are talking about how the idea of a resurrection arose among among a bunch of JEWS. They are organically and completely linked. The fact you think of them at that time as separate betrays your complete ignorance.

I never said they were separate. Why do you continue to misrepresent everything I say? It would probably do you good to read some more scholarship on the issue since you don't seem to know what you're talking about at all. Try these:
https://books.google.com/books?id=PXnHAA...&q&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=0uZcBg...&q&f=false

Quote:You showed no "development" through anything. You translated the word simplistically without it's Greek nuances, which is perfectly typical for people who know nothing about the cultures involved.

There is clear development in chronological order.

1. Paul receives his revelation from the risen Christ – appearing in a glorious heavenly body – approximately seven years following Jesus’ crucifixion. Paul writes in his letter to the Corinthians (c. 55 CE) that Jesus was raised in a spiritual body, not made of “flesh and blood.” While he equates his vision with that of the earlier apostles (e.g. Peter, James), he says nothing about a burial by Joseph, an empty tomb, and many other traditions found in the later gospels.

2. Mark, our earliest gospel (c. 70 CE), has no account of anyone seeing Jesus after he is raised. The author nonetheless hints at later (how later?) visions of Jesus by having the young man at the tomb instruct the women to tell the disciples to go to Galilee where they will see him.

3. Matthew (c. 85 CE) has an angel tell the disciples that they will see Jesus in Galilee. On their way to deliver the message they meet Jesus, who repeats the instruction more explicitly. Later, the eleven disciples see Jesus on a mountain in Galilee, “but some doubted” (Matt. 28:17).

4. Luke (c. 85 CE) has Jesus appear to two men that day as they were walking on a road outside Jerusalem. They share a meal with him, though it isn’t until he leaves that they recognize him. Peter then sees Jesus without details given. Jesus appears that evening to the eleven disciples in a room and eats with them. He convinces them he is not a spirit or ghost by showing them his physical body.

5. John, our last gospel (c. 95 CE), has Jesus first appear to Mary Magdalene, outside the tomb on Sunday morning. The evening he appears to the rest of the disciples (minus Thomas), showing them his wounds. Eight days later he reappears again, allowing Thomas to touch his wounds to distinguish his doubt that Jesus isn’t a ghost.
http://biblebrisket.com/2014/04/19/histo...urrection/

Quote:YOUR reference said they saw gods. Who then were you and he talking about ?


God "appears" to the patriarchs in the numerous instances de Jonge cites. http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid872281

Quote:Nice try. They were professors of NEW Testament, repeating the same old Christian tripe and are not recognized by anyone as experts in late Jewish Apocalypticism, and how that morphed into Christianity. You obviously have no feel at all for the nuances of the period, culture, or languages.


Just why do you think the NT scholars know nothing about how Christianity developed? Seriously, you don't think they had a course or two that explained these things? You sound like an unreasonable conspiracy theorist loon!

Quote:But you didn't answer the point in any way. Just a retort. Did you learn that at Biola ?

I'm not a Christian and I did answer the point by giving you the exact quote and page from Ehrman's book. Feel the burn.

Quote:A repeated CLAIM by Casey proves nothing, and I see you can't even come up with one.

A repeated genetic fallacy is not logically valid. I cannot accept such elementary misunderstanding and logically fallacious reasoning.

Quote:Hahahahaha. That's what I thought. They wrote about the culture that produced Christianity, you idiot.


So have many other scholars. Perhaps it would serve you better to provide examples in contemporary scholarship that say ancient Jews did not claim to have visions? This will be quite a difficult task considering the Hebrew Bible and Greco-Roman literature are rife with these visionary episodes.

Quote:Archaeology INTERPRETS things the things they find. How typical.


Archaeology deals with material remains dummy.

Quote:As you are very clearly most interested in dealing with apologists, perhaps you best stick to arguing with them.

I thought this was the Thinking Atheist? Don't see much "thinking" here...
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07-10-2015, 10:46 AM
RE: "Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
(07-10-2015 10:37 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  True. An empty tomb does not a resurrection make

What blows me away is with how much certainty I've seen that argument made. Several times.

They'll say "If there was no resurrection, how do you explain the empty tomb?".

Then, after two seconds, I make the face my avatar is making when I realize that's it, and they don't have anything else to add. Because yes, the most plausible way that a physical thing could have been moved when no one was looking is magic. These jaggofs need to give David Copperfield all of their money.

"He showed us a jet in a hanger, then, when we returned 12 hours later, it was gone!"
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07-10-2015, 10:46 AM
RE: "Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
(07-10-2015 09:16 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Book of Daniel is an interesting read isn't it? Lets take a peek at Daniel:

I already know all this stuff. I brought up Daniel because of the "visions" in Daniel 10.

Quote:Hallucinations, or lies.

The word "hallucination" is not what a 1st century Jew would use. That's just putting our modern way of looking at things back into history. Ancient Jews thought that they really had "visions" and that it was a special message from God. I'm not arguing that the experiences were actually real but I'm just trying to show this is what these ancient people actually believed. Once we grasp this concept and put things in their original 1st century context then it's easier to understand the development of Christianity.
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07-10-2015, 10:56 AM
RE: "Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
(07-10-2015 08:51 AM)GotIssues Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 08:46 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  But you talked about Acts.

I never said Acts was included in the earliest sources. Stop spamming my thread with your garbage.

It's not "your thread" This is TTA.
In your OP you said "There are many instances where it’s used of spiritual “visions”. For example: Acts 16:9-10 “And a vision appeared (ōphthē) to Paul in the night; there stood a man of Macedonia…And after he had seen the vision (horama), immediately we endeavored to go into Macedonia” Is there anyone who thinks the Macedonian man’s physical body was actually standing in front of Paul when he “appeared” to him?"

That's Acts .. in your OP about "earliest sources".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-10-2015, 11:02 AM
RE: "Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
(07-10-2015 10:56 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 08:51 AM)GotIssues Wrote:  I never said Acts was included in the earliest sources. Stop spamming my thread with your garbage.

It's not "your thread" This is TTA.
In your OP you said "There are many instances where it’s used of spiritual “visions”. For example: Acts 16:9-10 “And a vision appeared (ōphthē) to Paul in the night; there stood a man of Macedonia…And after he had seen the vision (horama), immediately we endeavored to go into Macedonia” Is there anyone who thinks the Macedonian man’s physical body was actually standing in front of Paul when he “appeared” to him?"

That's Acts .. in your OP about "earliest sources".

How many times do I have to keep correcting you? When I said "earliest sources" I meant Paul's letters. Got it? The reference in Acts above was used to demonstrate how the word ōphthē was used in reference to a vision. Got it? I realize that Acts comes after Paul but it's still contained within the New Testament. When doing an objective analysis of the NT it makes sense to discuss Acts don't you think?

Seriously, go away and read Bart Ehrman's book so you can stop making yourself look like an idiot. I just did a word search in my epub version of "How Jesus Became God." The word "vision" comes up 134 times!
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07-10-2015, 11:04 AM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2015 11:18 AM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: "Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
(07-10-2015 10:46 AM)GotIssues Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 09:16 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Book of Daniel is an interesting read isn't it? Lets take a peek at Daniel:

I already know all this stuff. I brought up Daniel because of the "visions" in Daniel 10.

Quote:Hallucinations, or lies.

The word "hallucination" is not what a 1st century Jew would use. That's just putting our modern way of looking at things back into history. Ancient Jews thought that they really had "visions" and that it was a special message from God. I'm not arguing that the experiences were actually real but I'm just trying to show this is what these ancient people actually believed. Once we grasp this concept and put things in their original 1st century context then it's easier to understand the development of Christianity.

I concur, and I um...am VERY familiar with Christianity, its formation, the copious amount of pseudepigrapha of which it contains, the development of the triune concept, incarnation and atonement, the fact that no one who EVER wrote about jesus actually knew him etc etc....as indicated by my degree in religious studies with specialization in christianity from Saint Leo University, and my many published papers....several of which are posted here in my GWG resource library.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rce-thread

Welcome aboard. Let me know if you need to flesh out your perspective any. Smartass

EDIT: Paul only wrote 7 of the 13 letters attributed to him(Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, and Philemon). 2 of them (Ephesians, Colossians) scholars are divided on their authenticity, and of course 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, and Titus are pseudepigrapha. These are facts I am sure you know, just sharing them for the viewers. Drooling

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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07-10-2015, 11:22 AM
RE: "Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
(07-10-2015 10:56 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 08:51 AM)GotIssues Wrote:  I never said Acts was included in the earliest sources. Stop spamming my thread with your garbage.

It's not "your thread" This is TTA.
In your OP you said "There are many instances where it’s used of spiritual “visions”. For example: Acts 16:9-10 “And a vision appeared (ōphthē) to Paul in the night; there stood a man of Macedonia…And after he had seen the vision (horama), immediately we endeavored to go into Macedonia” Is there anyone who thinks the Macedonian man’s physical body was actually standing in front of Paul when he “appeared” to him?"

That's Acts .. in your OP about "earliest sources".

I am not sure if it is a misunderstanding of the OP's intent or what, but I do not understand the adversarial approach being taken here. While the OP may not have been perfectly clear on his use of passages in Acts to support his argument, it seems to me that his follow-up posts have clarified that while maintaining his position on the subject.

It appears to this 3rd party observer, that Bucky Ball may have gotten a bit emotionally over-invested in his initial response and is now unwilling to back down without a concession of some sort on the part of the OP. I hereby offer this post as a sacrifice to the gods of reason and the gods of fury. That the former would bring enlightenment, and if not, that the latter would redirect the unrelententing anger toward this post instead. Martyr me if you must. Failing both, surely the gods of amusement will at least be appeased.

Amen.

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08-10-2015, 12:27 AM
RE: "Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
(07-10-2015 11:22 AM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 10:56 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It's not "your thread" This is TTA.

I am not sure if it is a misunderstanding of the OP's intent or what, but I do not understand the adversarial approach being taken here.

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08-10-2015, 02:15 AM
RE: "Visions" of Jesus in the earliest sources
(07-10-2015 10:46 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  "He showed us a jet in a hanger, then, when we returned 12 hours later, it was gone!"

It was a miracle!

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