Vulgarity masqueraging as clever.
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24-07-2016, 05:28 PM
RE: Vulgarity masqueraging as clever.
(24-07-2016 12:54 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I can answer that if I simply look at the God of the Old Testament as being derived from star worship with Orion being Horus/Apollo.

That's nice. But it's wrong.
Yahweh was the 40th son of El Elyon. The god of the armies, the war god.
Making up history as it's comfy, is preposterous. Cannanite gods were generally not celestial beings. They were forces of nature. (Some) Egyptian gods and Arabic gods were celestial beings. (Allah was originally a moon god).

I'm no fan of db's dot-connecting, but I never PM'd him.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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24-07-2016, 05:57 PM
RE: Vulgarity masqueraging as clever.
It's interesting that Allah was the moon god because Horus's left eye is the Moon and his right eye is the sun. Horus loses his eye and then it is restored, which is the waxing and waning of the moon, so the Islamic god is the eye of Horus, the moon. In Turkish, the moon is Ay and a month is Ay, which is where we get the word "eye", from the moon which is the eye of Horus, which is venerated in Turkey as the Nazar.

How can you do anything other than "join dots" in this type of discussion? You either read the O and N Testaments and accept them, in whole, in part or not at all, or you look elsewhere. The Romans did a comprehensive job of cleansing the Near East of heretical works, then we have the Roman Catholic Church doing the same. Islam is worse, it denies human history unless it conforms to what is in a book which is in a dead language which no one can read or does read. Most of the ancient archaeology associated with Christianity is in places like Golan or Turkey where no one is going to look at it objectively, or at all. Much is in areas that Erdogan is covering with hydro-electric dams.

We have someone who comes along and uses sources from Armenian historians and he is immediately driven off the forum and his name can't be mentioned. Others, like Joe Atwill, are never discussed, here or anywhere.

If we had an enlightenment, it didn't have any effect here. Free thinking means trying to join up ideas using modern technologies which throw new light on history, using probability theory, as Atwill does, being skeptical, looking at ancient writings in ways ancient people would have looked at them. Yet, all we get here is abuse.

I am annoyed because I live in a Muslim society and I see what goes on here. One of my jobs is trying to help foreigners deal with aspects of this society which result in them being duped and defrauded so I look into these things and try to help. I live in one of the least radical Islamic societies on earth, and yet, it is like being caught up in a Mafia style protection racket. The over all effect of Islam on people is to desensitize them from human concepts of honesty, truth, the rule of law, integrity, morality and all we take for granted in the West. People come here, look for a house, hand over some money to someone who smiles at them, treats them well, and they end up handing over vast sums of money and owning nothing. It is rife, a pandemic of fraud and corruption. If you rise up against it, the locals rally round each other because they have a common history going back, here, hundreds of years and their techniques and ethos are ruthless and well refined. You can't win, you can't even get even. That is Islam at its mildest. Why give any religion any quarter? Why pussyfoot around any of this crap, whether it's Islam or Judaism? It's all the same.

I grew up in Christianity. I hated it. I have now come around to at least realizing that it had some purpose and it is set out in the NT. It addressed the issues I mentioned above and they were the same now as they were back then. I have managed, by thrashing this whole subject to death here, to come to my own view that the NT is a polemic, addressing an existing and widespread religion which is nothing like what we see in modern Judaism. At it's core it had a moral compass, not a sky god. Debunk the sky god, accept a morality. It doesn't matter if the god of the Jews was Horus or the Tau. What the Abrahamic god was, was a projection of selfish, violent male attributes onto something, if not a star sign, then what, who knows?

All I am doing is blowing out the cobwebs that are in my brain because of the domination of my life by Christianity and then by Judaism in the culture of the profession and culture I came to work in, thinking that this group were free of prejudice and stupid beliefs, and finding they weren't, and now living under Islam. I'd go back to the UK where the prevailing culture is so banal it only offends one if one wants to talk about anything more interesting than the weather or what was on telly last night. But it's become an isolationist, politically correct hell hole too. Canada is an icebox where they have spent the last sixty years honing their French-English hate. I could never live in the US, not that I could get in, because I am paranoid about being shot and having to see more of Donald Trump than anyone should humanely have to endure.

So, yeah, I'm a "dot joiner" and damned fucking proud to be one.
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24-07-2016, 06:06 PM (This post was last modified: 25-07-2016 10:41 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Vulgarity masqueraging as clever.
(24-07-2016 05:57 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  It's interesting that Allah was the moon god because Horus's left eye is the Moon and his right eye is the sun.

You seem to be melting down. I hope you get help, should you need it.
Seriously.


The Arabic deities had nothing to do Horus. The moon god's WIFE was the sun.
Being ignorant of the history of a period does not justify plugging in one's obsessional personal peccadilloes, and insisting they are real history, when they are not.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid169445

"From the mountains of Turkey, in the North, to the banks of the Nile, in the South, archaeologists have uncovered proof that people in the Ancient Near East worshiped a moon god. As shown by Drs. Sjoberg and Hall, the ancient Sumerians worshiped a Moon-god who was called many different names. The most popular names were Nanna, Suen and Asimbabbar. His symbol was the crescent moon. Just owing simply to the amount of artifacts unearthed, the worship of Sin, was clearly the dominant cult in ancient Sumer. The cult of the Moon-god was also the most popular religion throughout ancient Mesopotamia. The Assyrians, Babylonians, and the Akkadians took the word "Suen", which was one of the names of the Moon god, and transformed it into the word Sin as their favorite name for the Moon-god. As Prof. D.T. Potts pointed out, "Sin is a name essentially Sumerian in origin which had been borrowed by the Semites". ("Treasures from the Royal Tombs of Ur", D.T. Pots et all).

http://themessianicmessage.com/article_islam_easter.pdf
http://repository.upenn.edu/dissertations/AAI8603645/

The Moon-god Sin was usually represented by the moon in its crescent phase. The sun-goddess was the wife of Sin, (and the stars were their daughters). For example, Ishtar was a daughter of Sin. Sacrifices to the Moon-god are described in the Pas Shamra texts. In the Ugaritic texts, the Moon-god was sometimes called Kusuh. In Persia, as well as in Egypt, the Moon-god is depicted on wall murals and on the heads of statues. He was the Judge of men and gods. In the ancient world, the symbol of the crescent moon can be found on seal impressions, steles, pottery, amulets, clay tablets, cylinders, weights, earrings, necklaces, wall murals, etc. In Tell-el-Obeid, a copper calf was found with a crescent moon on its forehead. An idol with the body of a bull and the head of man has a crescent moon in its forehead. In Ur, the Stela of Ur-Nammu has the crescent symbol placed at the top of the register of gods because the Moon-god was the head of the gods. Even bread was baked in the form of a crescent as an act of devotion to the Moon-god. The Ur of the Chaldees was so devoted to the Moon-god that it was sometimes called Nannar in tablets from that time period, (reflecting one of Sin's names).

A temple of the Moon-god has been excavated in Ur by Sir Leonard Woolley. He dug up many examples of moon worship in Ur and these are in the British Museum. Harran was likewise noted for its devotion to the Moon-god. In the 1950's a major temple to the Moon-god was excavated at Hazer in Palestine. Two idols of the moon god were found. Each was a stature of a man sitting upon a throne with a crescent moon carved on his chest . The accompanying inscriptions make it clear that these were idols of the Moon-god. Several smaller statues were also found which were identified by their inscriptions as the "daughters" of the Moon-god. As pointed out by Prof. Carlton S. Coon, "Muslims are notoriously loath to preserve traditions of earlier paganism and like to garble what pre-Islamic history they permit to survive in anachronistic terms". (Carleton S. Coon, Southern Arabia, Washington DC, Smithsonian, 1944, p.398)

http://www.antropologia.uw.edu.pl/SHA/sha-04-07.pdf

During the nineteenth century, Amaud, Halevy and Glaser went to Southern Arabia and dug up thousands of Sabean, Minaean, and Qatabanian inscriptions which were subsequently translated. In the 1940's, the archeologists G. Caton Thompson and Dr. Carleton S. Coon made some amazing discoveries in Arabia. During the 1950's, Wendell Phillips, William Foxwel Albright, Richard Bower and others excavated sites at Qataban, Timna, and Marib (the ancient capital of Sheba). Thousands of inscriptions from walls and rocks in Northern Arabia have also been collected. Reliefs and votive bowls used in worship of the "daughters of Allah" have also been discovered. THIS IS INCONTROVERTIBLE proof, that Allah predated any possible connection with the Hebrew god Yahweh, and they could not possibly be the same deity. The three daughters, al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat are sometimes depicted together with Allah the Moon-god represented by a crescent moon above them. The archeological evidence demonstrates the dominant religion of Arabia was the cult of the Moon god. There is no doubt about that. This moon god bore absolutely no relationship, whatsoever, to the Yahweh god, and his wife, (Ahsera). They were simply two different deities. How do we know that ?

1. Archaeology and location. The cult of Yahweh flourished to the North and West, of the sites where the Sin was prevalent.The artifacts are different. The "consorts", (wives) are different. Sin had mythological children. Yahweh did not. They cannot be the same god.

2. Scholarly consensus.

"Allah is found ... in Arabic inscriptions prior to Islam" (Encyclopedia Britannica, I:643)

"The Arabs, before the time of Mohammed, accepted and worshiped, a supreme god called allah" (Encyclopedia of Islam, eds. Houtsma, Arnold, Basset, Hartman; Leiden: E.J.Brill, 1913, I:302)

"Allah was known to the pre-Islamic Arabs; he was one of the Meccan deities" (Encyclopedia of Islam, ed. Gibb, I:406)

"Ilah ... appears in pre-Islamic poetry ... By frequency of usage, al-ilah was contracted to allah, frequently attested to in pre-Islamic poetry" (Encyclopedia of Islam, eds. Lewis, Menage, Pellat, Schacht; Leiden: E.J.Brill, 1971, III:1093)

"The name Allah goes back before Muhammed" (Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, "The Facts on File", ed. Anthony Mercatante, New York, 1983, I:41)

The origin of this (Allah) goes back to pre-Muslim times. Allah is not a common name meaning "God" (or a "god"), and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity" (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings, Edinburgh: T & T Clark, 1908, I:326)

Scholar Henry Preserved Smith of Harvard University stated:
"Allah was already known by name to the Arabs" (The Bible and Islam: or, the Influence of the Old and New Testament on the Religion of Mohammed, New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1897, p.102)

Dr. Kenneth Cragg, former editor of the prestigious scholarly journal Muslim World and an outstanding modern Western Islamic scholar, whose works were generally published by Oxford University, comments:
The name Allah is also evident in archaeological and literary remains of pre-Islamic Arabia" (The Call of the Minaret, New York: OUP, 1956, p.31)

Dr. W. Montgomery Watt, who was Professor of Arabic and Islamic Studies at Edinburgh University and Visiting Professor of Islamic Studies at College de France, Georgetown University, and the University of Toronto, has done extensive work on the pre-Islamic concept of Allah. He concludes:
"In recent years I have become increasingly convinced that for an adequate understanding of the career of Muhammad and the origins of Islam great importance must be attached to the existence in Mecca of belief in Allah as a "high god". In a sense this is a form of paganism, but it is so different from paganism as commonly understood that it deserves separate treatment" (Mohammad's Mecca, p.vii. See also his article, "Belief in a High God in pre-Islamic Mecca", Journal of Scientific Semitic Studies, vol.16, 1971, pp.35-40)

Caesar Farah in his book on Islam concludes his discussion of the pre-Islamic meaning of Allah by saying:
"There is no reason, therefore, to accept the idea that Allah passed to the Muslims from the Christians and Jews" (Islam: Beliefs and Observations, New York: Barrons, 1987, p.28)

According to Middle East scholar E.M.Wherry, whose translation of the Qur'an is still used today, in pre-Islamic times Allah-worship, as well as the worship of Baal, were both astral religions in that they involved the worship of the sun, the moon, and the stars (A Comprehensive Commentary on the Quran, Osnabrück: Otto Zeller Verlag, 1973, p.36).
"In ancient Arabia, the sun-god was viewed as a female goddess and the moon as the male god. As has been pointed out by many scholars as Alfred Guilluame, the moon god was called by various names, one of which was Allah (op.cit., Islam, p.7)
"The name Allah was used as the personal name of the moon god, in addition to the other titles that could be given to him.
"Allah, the moon god, was married to the sun goddess. Together they produced three goddesses who were called 'the daughters of Allah'. These three goddesses were called Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat.
"The daughters of Allah, along with Allah and the sun goddess were viewed as "high" gods. That is, they were viewed as being at the top of the pantheon of Arabian deities" (Robert Morey, The Islamic Invasion, Eugene, Oregon, Harvest House Publishers, 1977, pp.50-51).

The Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend records:
"Along with Allah, however, they worshiped a host of lesser gods and "daughters of Allah" (op.cit., I:61).

The Encyclopedia of Religion says: "'Allah' is a pre-Islamic name ... corresponding to the Babylonian Bel" (ed. James Hastings, Edinburgh, T. & T. Clark, 1908, I:326).

It is a well known fact archaeologically speaking that the crescent moon was the symbol of worship of the moon god both in Arabia and throughout the Middle East in pre-Islamic times. Archaeologists have excavated numerous statues and hieroglyphic inscriptions in which a crescent moon was seated on the top of the head of the deity to symbolize the worship of the moon-god. Interestingly, whilst the moon was generally worshiped as a female deity in the Ancient Near East, the Arabs viewed it as a male deity.

In Mesopotamia the Sumerian god Nanna, named Sîn by the Akkadians, was worshiped in particular in Ur, where he was the chief god of the city, and also in the city of Harran in Syria, which had close religious links with Ur. The Ugaritic texts have shown that there a moon deity was worshiped under the name yrh. On the monuments the god is represented by the symbol of the crescent moon. At Hazor in Palestine a small Canaanite shrine of the late Bronze Age was discovered which contained a basalt stele depicting two hands lifted as if in prayer to a crescent moon, indicating that the shrine was dedicated to the moon god.

The worship of stellar deities, instead of Yahweh, was always a temptation faced by the Israelites (Dt.4:19; Jer.7:18; Am.5:26; Ac.7:43). But Yahweh is at the zenith of the heavens (Job 22:12).

"The Quraysh tribe into which Mohammad was born was particularly devoted to Allah, the moon god, and especially to Allah's three daughters who were viewed as intercessors between the people and Allah.

"The worship of the three goddesses, Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat, played a significant rôle in the worship at the Kabah in Mecca. The first two daughters of Allah had names which were feminine forms of Allah."The literal Arabic name of Muhammad's father was Abd-Allah. His uncle's name was Obied-Allah. These names reveal the personal devotion that Muhammad's pagan family had to the worship of Allah, the moon god" ( Morey, p.51).

History proves conclusively that before Islam came into existence, the Sabbeans in Arabia worshiped the moon-god Allah who was married to the sun-goddess. We have also seen that it was a matter of common practice to use the name of the moon-god in personal names in Muhammad's tribe. That Allah was a pagan deity in pre-Islamic times is incontestable. And so we must ask ourselves the question: why was Muhammad's God named after a pagan deity in his own tribe?

It is an undeniable fact that an Allah idol was set up at the Kabah along with all the other idols of the time. The pagans prayed towards Mecca and the Kabah because that is where their gods were stationed. It made sense to them to face in the direction of their god and pray since that is where he was. Since the idol of their moon god, Allah, was at Mecca, they prayed towards Mecca.

As we have seen, and as is acknowledged amongst all scholars of Middle Eastern religious history, the worship of the moon-god extended far beyond Allah-worship in Arabia. The entire fertile crescent was involved in moon-worship. The data falls neatly in place and we are able therefore to understand, in part, the early success Islam had amongst Arab groups that had traditionally worshiped Allah, the moon-god. We can also understand that the use of the crescent moon as the symbol of Islam, and which appears on dozens of flags of Islamic nations in Asia and Africa, and surmounts minarets and mosque roofs, is a throwback to the days when Allah was worshiped as the moon-god in Mecca.

Nabonidus (555-539 BC), was the last king of Babylon, and he built Tayma, Arabia as a center of Moon-god worship. Segall stated, "South Arabia's "stellar religion" has always been dominated by the Moon-god in various forms" (Some scholars have also noticed that the Moon-god's name "Sin" is a part of such Arabic words as "Sin-ai," the "wilderness of Sin," etc.) Mecca was built as a shrine for the Moon-god. This is what made it the most sacred site of Arabian paganism. In 1944, G. Caton Thompson revealed in her book, "The Tombs and Moon Temple of Hureidha", that she had uncovered a temple of the Moon-god in southern Arabia. The symbols of the crescent moon and no less than twenty-one inscriptions with the name Sin were found in this temple. An idol which may be the Moon-god himself was also discovered. This was confirmed by other well-known archeologists.

In 1944, G. Caton Thompson revealed in her book, The Tombs and Moon Temple of Hureidah, that she had uncovered a temple of the moon-god in southern Arabia (see map above). The symbols of the crescent moon and no less than 21 inscriptions with the name Sîn were found in this temple (see above left). An idol which is probably the moon-god himself was also discovered (see above right). This was later confirmed by other well-known archaeologists (See Richard Le Baron Bower Jr. and Frank P. Albright, Archaeological Discoveries in South Arabia, Baltimore, John Hopkins University Press, 1958, p.78ff; Ray Cleveland, An Ancient South Arabian Necropolis, Baltimore, John Hopkins University Press, 1965; Nelson Gleuck, Deities and Dolphins, New York, Farrar, Strauss and Giroux, 1965).

Worship of the Moon god continued in the Christian era. Evidence gathered from both North and South Arabia demonstrate that Moon-god worship was clearly active even in Muhammad's day and was still the dominant cult. According to numerous inscriptions, while the name of the Moon-god was Sin, his title was al-ilah, i.e. "the deity," meaning that he was the chief or high god among the gods. As Dr. Coon pointed out, "The god Il or Ilah was originally a phase of the Moon God." The Moon-god was called al-ilah, i.e. the god, which was shortened to Allah in pre-Islamic times. The pagan Arabs even used Allah in the names they gave to their children. For example, both Muhammad's father and uncle had Allah as part of their names. The fact that they were given such names by their pagan parents proves that Allah was the title for the Moon-god even in Muhammad's day. Prof. Coon goes on to say, "Similarly, under Mohammed's tutelage, the relatively anonymous Ilah, became Al-Ilah, The God, or Allah, the Supreme Being."

The word "Allah" comes from the compound Arabic word, al-ilah. Al is the definite article "the" and ilah is an Arabic word for "god", i.e. the god. We see immediately that (a) this is not a proper name but a generic name rather like the Hebrew El (which as we have seen was used of any deity; and (b) that Allah is not a foreign word (as it would have been if it had been borrowed from the Hebrew Bible) but a purely Arabic one. It would also be wrong to compare "Allah" with the Hebrew or Greek for God (El and Theos, respectively), because "Allah" is purely an Arabic term used exclusively in reference to an Arabic deity.

THE classic scholarship in West on Qur'an : http://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/THE_..._QURAN.pdf ,
http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Tis.../index.htm
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Sources/
http://jacksonsnyder.com/arc/Articles%202002/quran.htm
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/_PDFAr...4W0404.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_...esopotamia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-82PT90T28 (ignore the religious claims at the beginning, start at 1:00)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dmoHxiK6...re=related

The Arabs worshiped the Moon-god Allah by praying toward Mecca several times a day; making a pilgrimage to Mecca; running around the temple of the Moon-god called the Kabah; kissing the black stone; killing an animal in sacrifice to the Moon-god; throwing stones at the devil; fasting for the month which begins and ends with the crescent moon; giving alms to the poor, etc. The Muslim's claim that Allah is Yahweh and that Islam arose from the religion of the prophets and apostles is refuted by solid, overwhelming archeological evidence, and even if true, in the extreme off chance that ALL the archaeology is wrong, then it's false anyway, as we know full well where Yahweh came from, and his mythological origns. Islam is nothing more than an extension of an ancient Moon-god cult. It has taken the symbols, the rites, the ceremonies, and even the name of its god from the ancient religion of the Moon-god.

The first point of the Muslim creed is not, "Allah is great" but "Allah is the greatest," i.e., he is the greatest among the gods. Why would Muhammad say that Allah is the "greatest" except in a polytheistic context? The Arabic word is used to contrast the greater from the lesser. That this is true is seen from the fact that the Arabs never accused Muhammad of preaching a different Allah than the one they already worshipped. This "Allah" was the Moon-god according to the archeological evidence. Muhammad thus attempted to have it both ways. To his contemporaries, he said that he still believed in the Moon-god Allah. To the Jews and the Christians, he said that Allah was their god too. Muhammad was born into a family that worship the moon god, and was steeped in that tradition. He did not break from it. He enhanced, and extended it.

There are other, more esoteric, fundamental philosophical differences, between Judaism and Islam, which leads one to conclude that the godheads are not similar. In Judaism, originally a moral evil, (in the Garden myth), was something which was *not-Chaos*, ie the opposite of Chaos, (which was a common theme in the Sumerian myth system). The evil in the Garden myth was "attempting to encompass opposites, (ie Choas), or "be like a god"... the ability to "encompass the opposites". . In Islam, the overriding concept of evil is non-submission. Period. Islam means to "submit", (to the will of Allah). They are very different concepts. Thus the "revelation" of one,is fundamentally different from the other, NOT a "continuity". At the "last judgement" is very different. Jesus thought it was immanent in his lifetime. By the time of Muhammad, he appropriated the later concepts, as he would have no way of knowing what Jesus actually taught about.

From the apparent beginning, "the book", ie the Qur'an is the central organizing factor in the religion of Islam. No "book" was the central organizing factor in either Judaism or Christianity. The OT bible texts were NOT assembled in to one book, until very late in their history, and it was simply not available, (5% or less literacy rates), or important to Jews,until an organizing force was needed post Exile, and post Diaspora. Christianity preached the "good news", (according to St. Paul), but at the time he said that there were no gospel texts yet, and no organized collections of them, until much later. As we see in the Donner video, the "believers" or "believing community" is very similar to the early communities of Christians, ie believers who wrote their texts for their

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RFK5u5lkhA

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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24-07-2016, 06:29 PM
RE: Vulgarity masqueraging as clever.
(24-07-2016 05:03 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  at typical day on an internet forum

Lets talk about god, not big G god but little g god, who we all talk about so he must exist.

You effing arse, go away.

No, come on, lets talk about it and make us some rules.

No, fuck off.

Ok, so lets start. He's big, scary and he has big hair.

You fucking revisionist, we've had your sort here before, and we ran them off.

Ok, so anybody know about the Illumiati, David Duke and Yetis? How about Paul. He proves Jesus was a myth.

Fuck you, you can't even spell Illuminati, you cunt.

Oh, sorry, I can but I have dyslexia. My dad was cross eyed.

Fuck you just because he was doesn't mean you can play that card, you moron. You were on that other forum, and got kicked off, now fuck off outa here, boy.

But this isn't fair, why is eveyone so nasty?

Cuz you are a cunt.

Now, come on, we should all be friends and talk about Hitler in Argentina.

You are an ass, insert Youtube link to donkey vid, Hole, insert video link to picture of black hole. You lying revisionist, asshole, no good for nothing prick, get outa here. And take Donald Trump with you. much lafter.(sp)

But what about Paul? Was he really Apolonius, and why did he change his name, from Nooky?

Oh, fuck off. Learn to spell. Moron.

But which Paul? Paul Harvey? Rand Paul? Or his daddy?
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25-07-2016, 09:33 AM (This post was last modified: 25-07-2016 10:06 AM by Deltabravo.)
RE: Vulgarity masqueraging as clever.
Bucky, thanks for your kind thoughts.

I have a problem, being raised in Christianity. We are told that Jesus was born a Jew. But then we are told that the religion he was born into expected a Messiah, had a feudal kingship going back to Adam, that Judaism was a religion of slavery, female oppression, bigamy, child sacrifice. We were told that the world was only about 6000 years old according to the Old Testament despite dinosaurs and stars being light years away. This Judaism that Jesus was born into, as a descendent of the royal line of David, is pretty disgusting, to be frank. Then, we are told Jesus is crucified and this was a common practice predating Christianity and that this Judaism had a notion of virgin birth, since Jesus wasn't around when he was conceived and the idea had to come from some place.

So, this religion he was born into. It's nothing like modern Judaism, right? None of the stuff I mention is practiced anymore by modern Jews or believed in. There's no messiah, no virgin birth, Jesus was not descended from Adam or David. Whatever religion he came to "fulfill", is just nothing to do with any "Judaism" practiced by people in Judea now, or even at the time if Judaism is a consistent religion, true to itself in some way.



I found this on another forum http://www.answering-christianity.com/bl...opic=804.0

Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ.

Moslems believe in Christ.

Horus, the ancient Egyptian God, was a personification of the Sun. During the winter solstice on December 21, the sun stops moving South and resides on the Southern cross (Crux) constellation for three days. Then, on December 25, the Sun actually moves about one degree upwards. This personification led to Horus being crucified for three days, then reborn. In fact, in the countries where the pagan practice of Christmas, the Sun does not even appear on the three days, meaning it has officially 'died' for three days. The three kings myth in the bible is also from Horus. The star of the East, Sirius, along with the Orion belt (The three kings), point towards the Sun rise on Christmas Eve. This is where they got the story of the three kings following the birth of the Sun. The parallels continue! The twelve apostles are nothing but the twelve Zodiac constellations. As for Jesus turning 'water into wine', it is a reference to how the Sun can ferment grapes in water and turn them into wine. The 'walking on water' trick is a reference to the Sun's reflection on the water. Baptism comes from the constellation Aquarius, under which the Sun rises upon. There are entire books on the issue! Judas betraying Jesus with a kiss of death is a reference to the Scorpio constellation. In fact, Autumn is known as fall, the fall of the sun. What makes the sun 'fall'? It resides on the Scorpio constellation, then moves south, causing a 'fall'. In Egyptian mythology, the scorpion's kiss of death makes the Sun fall. The scorpion is meant to be deceptive, and its bite resembles a sting. There is a lot more to it than I just showed you. Y

* A son of God
* Walking on water
* Born on Dec. 25
* Performed miracles
* Resurrected the dead (The sun revives dead land)

Of course, one more thing was in common with all of these guys: Virgin birth. The virgo constellation comes shortly before the Sun rise on Christmas Eve, as if virgo was giving birth to the Sun.
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25-07-2016, 09:45 AM
RE: Vulgarity masqueraging as clever.
I really feel I haven't made myself clear.

The astrological myths mentioned above are clearly widespread and pervasive, at the time of Jesus. They are in Egyptian and many other cultures around the Near East.

In the NT we have the story of a man who is said to be of the royal house of David, in other words, part of a feudal dynasty and it is he who is the actual figure who is being written about.

These are separate things. There are astrological myths. There were also feudal dynastic lines. The fact that there are myths and people embellish the life of a member of a feudal dynasty with these myths doesn't make the person into a myth.

Do we at least agree in principle on that?

Then in Christianity we have a very clear explanation of God as not being the moon, the sun or any other celestial thing. It is clearly defined as "the word" or the logos.

Then, we have in Christianity a pronouncement of a moral concept, do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Following this we have a series of examples and parables explaining the application of that moral rule. And of course, exhortation of those to follow these precepts, "blessed are the meek, etc."

I think I am being pretty uncontroversial in distilling these few threads in Christianity.

So, why the need? What were people like? What did they actually believe? How did they treat each other? Were they Arabic and prayed to the moon? What did the moon tell them to do? Where did the moon religion get its ideas about human moral conduct?
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22-10-2016, 06:56 AM (This post was last modified: 22-10-2016 07:01 AM by Deltabravo.)
RE: Vulgarity masqueraging as clever.
(24-07-2016 06:06 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(24-07-2016 05:57 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  It's interesting that Allah was the moon god because Horus's left eye is the Moon and his right eye is the sun.

You seem to be melting down. I hope you get help, should you need it.
Seriously.


The Arabic deities had nothing to do Horus. The moon god's WIFE was the sun.
Being ignorant of the history of a period does not justify plugging in one's obsessional personal peccadilloes, and insisting they are real history, when they are not.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid169445

"From the mountains of Turkey, in the North, to the banks of the Nile, in the South, archaeologists have uncovered proof that people in the Ancient Near East worshiped a moon god. As shown by Drs. Sjoberg and Hall, the ancient Sumerians worshiped a Moon-god who was called many different names. The most popular names were Nanna, Suen and Asimbabbar. His symbol was the crescent moon. Just owing simply to the amount of artifacts unearthed, the worship of Sin, was clearly the dominant cult in ancient Sumer. The cult of the Moon-god was also the most popular religion throughout ancient Mesopotamia. The Assyrians, Babylonians, and the Akkadians took the word "Suen", which was one of the names of the Moon god, and transformed it into the word Sin as their favorite name for the Moon-god. As Prof. D.T. Potts pointed out, "Sin is a name essentially Sumerian in origin which had been borrowed by the Semites". ("Treasures from the Royal Tombs of Ur", D.T. Pots et all).

http://themessianicmessage.com/article_islam_easter.pdf
http://repository.upenn.edu/dissertations/AAI8603645/

The Moon-god Sin was usually represented by the moon in its crescent phase. The sun-goddess was the wife of Sin, (and the stars were their daughters). For example, Ishtar was a daughter of Sin. Sacrifices to the Moon-god are described in the Pas Shamra texts. In the Ugaritic texts, the Moon-god was sometimes called Kusuh. In Persia, as well as in Egypt, the Moon-god is depicted on wall murals and on the heads of statues. He was the Judge of men and gods. In the ancient world, the symbol of the crescent moon can be found on seal impressions, steles, pottery, amulets, clay tablets, cylinders, weights, earrings, necklaces, wall murals, etc. In Tell-el-Obeid, a copper calf was found with a crescent moon on its forehead. An idol with the body of a bull and the head of man has a crescent moon in its forehead. In Ur, the Stela of Ur-Nammu has the crescent symbol placed at the top of the register of gods because the Moon-god was the head of the gods. Even bread was baked in the form of a crescent as an act of devotion to the Moon-god. The Ur of the Chaldees was so devoted to the Moon-god that it was sometimes called Nannar in tablets from that time period, (reflecting one of Sin's names).

A temple of the Moon-god has been excavated in Ur by Sir Leonard Woolley. He dug up many examples of moon worship in Ur and these are in the British Museum. Harran was likewise noted for its devotion to the Moon-god. In the 1950's a major temple to the Moon-god was excavated at Hazer in Palestine. Two idols of the moon god were found. Each was a stature of a man sitting upon a throne with a crescent moon carved on his chest . The accompanying inscriptions make it clear that these were idols of the Moon-god. Several smaller statues were also found which were identified by their inscriptions as the "daughters" of the Moon-god. As pointed out by Prof. Carlton S. Coon, "Muslims are notoriously loath to preserve traditions of earlier paganism and like to garble what pre-Islamic history they permit to survive in anachronistic terms". (Carleton S. Coon, Southern Arabia, Washington DC, Smithsonian, 1944, p.398)

http://www.antropologia.uw.edu.pl/SHA/sha-04-07.pdf

During the nineteenth century, Amaud, Halevy and Glaser went to Southern Arabia and dug up thousands of Sabean, Minaean, and Qatabanian inscriptions which were subsequently translated. In the 1940's, the archeologists G. Caton Thompson and Dr. Carleton S. Coon made some amazing discoveries in Arabia. During the 1950's, Wendell Phillips, William Foxwel Albright, Richard Bower and others excavated sites at Qataban, Timna, and Marib (the ancient capital of Sheba). Thousands of inscriptions from walls and rocks in Northern Arabia have also been collected. Reliefs and votive bowls used in worship of the "daughters of Allah" have also been discovered. THIS IS INCONTROVERTIBLE proof, that Allah predated any possible connection with the Hebrew god Yahweh, and they could not possibly be the same deity. The three daughters, al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat are sometimes depicted together with Allah the Moon-god represented by a crescent moon above them. The archeological evidence demonstrates the dominant religion of Arabia was the cult of the Moon god. There is no doubt about that. This moon god bore absolutely no relationship, whatsoever, to the Yahweh god, and his wife, (Ahsera). They were simply two different deities. How do we know that ?

1. Archaeology and location. The cult of Yahweh flourished to the North and West, of the sites where the Sin was prevalent.The artifacts are different. The "consorts", (wives) are different. Sin had mythological children. Yahweh did not. They cannot be the same god.

2. Scholarly consensus.

"Allah is found ... in Arabic inscriptions prior to Islam" (Encyclopedia Britannica, I:643)

"The Arabs, before the time of Mohammed, accepted and worshiped, a supreme god called allah" (Encyclopedia of Islam, eds. Houtsma, Arnold, Basset, Hartman; Leiden: E.J.Brill, 1913, I:302)

"Allah was known to the pre-Islamic Arabs; he was one of the Meccan deities" (Encyclopedia of Islam, ed. Gibb, I:406)

"Ilah ... appears in pre-Islamic poetry ... By frequency of usage, al-ilah was contracted to allah, frequently attested to in pre-Islamic poetry" (Encyclopedia of Islam, eds. Lewis, Menage, Pellat, Schacht; Leiden: E.J.Brill, 1971, III:1093)

"The name Allah goes back before Muhammed" (Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, "The Facts on File", ed. Anthony Mercatante, New York, 1983, I:41)

The origin of this (Allah) goes back to pre-Muslim times. Allah is not a common name meaning "God" (or a "god"), and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity" (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings, Edinburgh: T & T Clark, 1908, I:326)

Scholar Henry Preserved Smith of Harvard University stated:
"Allah was already known by name to the Arabs" (The Bible and Islam: or, the Influence of the Old and New Testament on the Religion of Mohammed, New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1897, p.102)

Dr. Kenneth Cragg, former editor of the prestigious scholarly journal Muslim World and an outstanding modern Western Islamic scholar, whose works were generally published by Oxford University, comments:
The name Allah is also evident in archaeological and literary remains of pre-Islamic Arabia" (The Call of the Minaret, New York: OUP, 1956, p.31)

Dr. W. Montgomery Watt, who was Professor of Arabic and Islamic Studies at Edinburgh University and Visiting Professor of Islamic Studies at College de France, Georgetown University, and the University of Toronto, has done extensive work on the pre-Islamic concept of Allah. He concludes:
"In recent years I have become increasingly convinced that for an adequate understanding of the career of Muhammad and the origins of Islam great importance must be attached to the existence in Mecca of belief in Allah as a "high god". In a sense this is a form of paganism, but it is so different from paganism as commonly understood that it deserves separate treatment" (Mohammad's Mecca, p.vii. See also his article, "Belief in a High God in pre-Islamic Mecca", Journal of Scientific Semitic Studies, vol.16, 1971, pp.35-40)

Caesar Farah in his book on Islam concludes his discussion of the pre-Islamic meaning of Allah by saying:
"There is no reason, therefore, to accept the idea that Allah passed to the Muslims from the Christians and Jews" (Islam: Beliefs and Observations, New York: Barrons, 1987, p.28)

According to Middle East scholar E.M.Wherry, whose translation of the Qur'an is still used today, in pre-Islamic times Allah-worship, as well as the worship of Baal, were both astral religions in that they involved the worship of the sun, the moon, and the stars (A Comprehensive Commentary on the Quran, Osnabrück: Otto Zeller Verlag, 1973, p.36).
"In ancient Arabia, the sun-god was viewed as a female goddess and the moon as the male god. As has been pointed out by many scholars as Alfred Guilluame, the moon god was called by various names, one of which was Allah (op.cit., Islam, p.7)
"The name Allah was used as the personal name of the moon god, in addition to the other titles that could be given to him.
"Allah, the moon god, was married to the sun goddess. Together they produced three goddesses who were called 'the daughters of Allah'. These three goddesses were called Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat.
"The daughters of Allah, along with Allah and the sun goddess were viewed as "high" gods. That is, they were viewed as being at the top of the pantheon of Arabian deities" (Robert Morey, The Islamic Invasion, Eugene, Oregon, Harvest House Publishers, 1977, pp.50-51).

The Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend records:
"Along with Allah, however, they worshiped a host of lesser gods and "daughters of Allah" (op.cit., I:61).

The Encyclopedia of Religion says: "'Allah' is a pre-Islamic name ... corresponding to the Babylonian Bel" (ed. James Hastings, Edinburgh, T. & T. Clark, 1908, I:326).

It is a well known fact archaeologically speaking that the crescent moon was the symbol of worship of the moon god both in Arabia and throughout the Middle East in pre-Islamic times. Archaeologists have excavated numerous statues and hieroglyphic inscriptions in which a crescent moon was seated on the top of the head of the deity to symbolize the worship of the moon-god. Interestingly, whilst the moon was generally worshiped as a female deity in the Ancient Near East, the Arabs viewed it as a male deity.

In Mesopotamia the Sumerian god Nanna, named Sîn by the Akkadians, was worshiped in particular in Ur, where he was the chief god of the city, and also in the city of Harran in Syria, which had close religious links with Ur. The Ugaritic texts have shown that there a moon deity was worshiped under the name yrh. On the monuments the god is represented by the symbol of the crescent moon. At Hazor in Palestine a small Canaanite shrine of the late Bronze Age was discovered which contained a basalt stele depicting two hands lifted as if in prayer to a crescent moon, indicating that the shrine was dedicated to the moon god.

The worship of stellar deities, instead of Yahweh, was always a temptation faced by the Israelites (Dt.4:19; Jer.7:18; Am.5:26; Ac.7:43). But Yahweh is at the zenith of the heavens (Job 22:12).

"The Quraysh tribe into which Mohammad was born was particularly devoted to Allah, the moon god, and especially to Allah's three daughters who were viewed as intercessors between the people and Allah.

"The worship of the three goddesses, Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat, played a significant rôle in the worship at the Kabah in Mecca. The first two daughters of Allah had names which were feminine forms of Allah."The literal Arabic name of Muhammad's father was Abd-Allah. His uncle's name was Obied-Allah. These names reveal the personal devotion that Muhammad's pagan family had to the worship of Allah, the moon god" ( Morey, p.51).

History proves conclusively that before Islam came into existence, the Sabbeans in Arabia worshiped the moon-god Allah who was married to the sun-goddess. We have also seen that it was a matter of common practice to use the name of the moon-god in personal names in Muhammad's tribe. That Allah was a pagan deity in pre-Islamic times is incontestable. And so we must ask ourselves the question: why was Muhammad's God named after a pagan deity in his own tribe?

It is an undeniable fact that an Allah idol was set up at the Kabah along with all the other idols of the time. The pagans prayed towards Mecca and the Kabah because that is where their gods were stationed. It made sense to them to face in the direction of their god and pray since that is where he was. Since the idol of their moon god, Allah, was at Mecca, they prayed towards Mecca.

As we have seen, and as is acknowledged amongst all scholars of Middle Eastern religious history, the worship of the moon-god extended far beyond Allah-worship in Arabia. The entire fertile crescent was involved in moon-worship. The data falls neatly in place and we are able therefore to understand, in part, the early success Islam had amongst Arab groups that had traditionally worshiped Allah, the moon-god. We can also understand that the use of the crescent moon as the symbol of Islam, and which appears on dozens of flags of Islamic nations in Asia and Africa, and surmounts minarets and mosque roofs, is a throwback to the days when Allah was worshiped as the moon-god in Mecca.

Nabonidus (555-539 BC), was the last king of Babylon, and he built Tayma, Arabia as a center of Moon-god worship. Segall stated, "South Arabia's "stellar religion" has always been dominated by the Moon-god in various forms" (Some scholars have also noticed that the Moon-god's name "Sin" is a part of such Arabic words as "Sin-ai," the "wilderness of Sin," etc.) Mecca was built as a shrine for the Moon-god. This is what made it the most sacred site of Arabian paganism. In 1944, G. Caton Thompson revealed in her book, "The Tombs and Moon Temple of Hureidha", that she had uncovered a temple of the Moon-god in southern Arabia. The symbols of the crescent moon and no less than twenty-one inscriptions with the name Sin were found in this temple. An idol which may be the Moon-god himself was also discovered. This was confirmed by other well-known archeologists.

In 1944, G. Caton Thompson revealed in her book, The Tombs and Moon Temple of Hureidah, that she had uncovered a temple of the moon-god in southern Arabia (see map above). The symbols of the crescent moon and no less than 21 inscriptions with the name Sîn were found in this temple (see above left). An idol which is probably the moon-god himself was also discovered (see above right). This was later confirmed by other well-known archaeologists (See Richard Le Baron Bower Jr. and Frank P. Albright, Archaeological Discoveries in South Arabia, Baltimore, John Hopkins University Press, 1958, p.78ff; Ray Cleveland, An Ancient South Arabian Necropolis, Baltimore, John Hopkins University Press, 1965; Nelson Gleuck, Deities and Dolphins, New York, Farrar, Strauss and Giroux, 1965).

Worship of the Moon god continued in the Christian era. Evidence gathered from both North and South Arabia demonstrate that Moon-god worship was clearly active even in Muhammad's day and was still the dominant cult. According to numerous inscriptions, while the name of the Moon-god was Sin, his title was al-ilah, i.e. "the deity," meaning that he was the chief or high god among the gods. As Dr. Coon pointed out, "The god Il or Ilah was originally a phase of the Moon God." The Moon-god was called al-ilah, i.e. the god, which was shortened to Allah in pre-Islamic times. The pagan Arabs even used Allah in the names they gave to their children. For example, both Muhammad's father and uncle had Allah as part of their names. The fact that they were given such names by their pagan parents proves that Allah was the title for the Moon-god even in Muhammad's day. Prof. Coon goes on to say, "Similarly, under Mohammed's tutelage, the relatively anonymous Ilah, became Al-Ilah, The God, or Allah, the Supreme Being."

The word "Allah" comes from the compound Arabic word, al-ilah. Al is the definite article "the" and ilah is an Arabic word for "god", i.e. the god. We see immediately that (a) this is not a proper name but a generic name rather like the Hebrew El (which as we have seen was used of any deity; and (b) that Allah is not a foreign word (as it would have been if it had been borrowed from the Hebrew Bible) but a purely Arabic one. It would also be wrong to compare "Allah" with the Hebrew or Greek for God (El and Theos, respectively), because "Allah" is purely an Arabic term used exclusively in reference to an Arabic deity.

THE classic scholarship in West on Qur'an : http://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/THE_..._QURAN.pdf ,
http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Tis.../index.htm
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Sources/
http://jacksonsnyder.com/arc/Articles%202002/quran.htm
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/_PDFAr...4W0404.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_...esopotamia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-82PT90T28 (ignore the religious claims at the beginning, start at 1:00)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dmoHxiK6...re=related

The Arabs worshiped the Moon-god Allah by praying toward Mecca several times a day; making a pilgrimage to Mecca; running around the temple of the Moon-god called the Kabah; kissing the black stone; killing an animal in sacrifice to the Moon-god; throwing stones at the devil; fasting for the month which begins and ends with the crescent moon; giving alms to the poor, etc. The Muslim's claim that Allah is Yahweh and that Islam arose from the religion of the prophets and apostles is refuted by solid, overwhelming archeological evidence, and even if true, in the extreme off chance that ALL the archaeology is wrong, then it's false anyway, as we know full well where Yahweh came from, and his mythological origns. Islam is nothing more than an extension of an ancient Moon-god cult. It has taken the symbols, the rites, the ceremonies, and even the name of its god from the ancient religion of the Moon-god.

The first point of the Muslim creed is not, "Allah is great" but "Allah is the greatest," i.e., he is the greatest among the gods. Why would Muhammad say that Allah is the "greatest" except in a polytheistic context? The Arabic word is used to contrast the greater from the lesser. That this is true is seen from the fact that the Arabs never accused Muhammad of preaching a different Allah than the one they already worshipped. This "Allah" was the Moon-god according to the archeological evidence. Muhammad thus attempted to have it both ways. To his contemporaries, he said that he still believed in the Moon-god Allah. To the Jews and the Christians, he said that Allah was their god too. Muhammad was born into a family that worship the moon god, and was steeped in that tradition. He did not break from it. He enhanced, and extended it.

There are other, more esoteric, fundamental philosophical differences, between Judaism and Islam, which leads one to conclude that the godheads are not similar. In Judaism, originally a moral evil, (in the Garden myth), was something which was *not-Chaos*, ie the opposite of Chaos, (which was a common theme in the Sumerian myth system). The evil in the Garden myth was "attempting to encompass opposites, (ie Choas), or "be like a god"... the ability to "encompass the opposites". . In Islam, the overriding concept of evil is non-submission. Period. Islam means to "submit", (to the will of Allah). They are very different concepts. Thus the "revelation" of one,is fundamentally different from the other, NOT a "continuity". At the "last judgement" is very different. Jesus thought it was immanent in his lifetime. By the time of Muhammad, he appropriated the later concepts, as he would have no way of knowing what Jesus actually taught about.

From the apparent beginning, "the book", ie the Qur'an is the central organizing factor in the religion of Islam. No "book" was the central organizing factor in either Judaism or Christianity. The OT bible texts were NOT assembled in to one book, until very late in their history, and it was simply not available, (5% or less literacy rates), or important to Jews,until an organizing force was needed post Exile, and post Diaspora. Christianity preached the "good news", (according to St. Paul), but at the time he said that there were no gospel texts yet, and no organized collections of them, until much later. As we see in the Donner video, the "believers" or "believing community" is very similar to the early communities of Christians, ie believers who wrote their texts for their

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RFK5u5lkhA


I've read this and, frankly, I can't believe you have said some of it.

For instance:

"No "book" was the central organizing factor in either Judaism or Christianity... Christianity preached the "good news", (according to St. Paul), but at the time he said that there were no gospel texts yet, and no organized collections of them, until much later."

I find this to be a staggering bit of nonsense. Paul is travelling around the eastern Mediterranean and Syria, going to purportedly "Christian" churches, telling them that their messiah had arrived. This was in the late first century. But there was no "book". I agree. So who were these people he was visiting? I can only guess that these are followers of the Roman international cult of Serapis who, in Egypt, were considered to be Christians.

I can't see how you can say that Christianity, which doesn't come into existence properly until after Paul has done his trip, is not organized around a book. It was from about 78 AD which is about the earliest that I have seen anyone date Matthew. Before that, unless it is a different religion Paul is speaking to, it is hardly a religion at all, unless it is the Serapis cult.

For example: Wiki:

"Serapis figured among the international deities whose cult was received and disseminated throughout the Roman Empire, with Anubis sometimes identified with Cerberus. At Rome, Serapis was worshiped in the Iseum Campense, the sanctuary of Isis built during the Second Triumvirate in the Campus Martius. The Roman cults of Isis and Serapis gained in popularity late in the 1st century when Vespasian experienced events he attributed to their miraculous agency while he was in Alexandria, where he stayed before returning to Rome as emperor in 70. From the Flavian Dynasty on, Serapis was one of the deities who might appear on imperial coinage with the reigning emperor.

The main cult at Alexandria survived until the late 4th century, when a Christian mob destroyed the Serapeum of Alexandria in 385. The Theodosian decree of 380 implicitly included the cult in its general proscription of religions other than approved forms of Nicene Christianity."

Ah yes, it's destroyed by Christian mobs because it is not "the" approved version of the new Christian religion. Hadrian said they were one and the same, so it comes eventually to be heretical and has to be rubbed out.



The OT bible texts were NOT assembled in to one book, until very late in their history, and it was simply not available, (5% or less literacy rates), or important to Jews,until an organizing force was needed post Exile, and post Diaspora.

Yes, I agree. So how do religions develop? Only by observation of and speculation about natural events such as procreation and movements of the heavens. I have pointed out that my view on this is the same as Feuerbach's, that man creates god in his own likeness so for me there is no problem seeing how men can take star signs and "read" stories into them. Ancient dot-joining. People do that sort of thing even though you may never had heard of the concept.lol. That is why I don't particularly care about what is said in most peer reviewed works.

I don't know what your religious background is although I assume you are Jewish because of your interest in Judaism.

What I find disturbing about the way you post ref: me, is that you fail to appreciate how bizarre a religion Christianity is to grow up in and try to figure out. On the one hand, you have a moral position which is quite exemplary, so it's hard to argue with. Then you have this horrific crucifixion story of a man who is supposed to be the greatest thing ever, son of god etc. etc. What a horrific story to tell young children. I think that alone is traumatizing. How can anyone pull away from that message, that whoever he was bringing this message to was gripped by a positively evil religious, political and social culture.

Then it is set against a Jewish background but the religion Jesus is said to be preaching from comes, so we are told, from Egypt, it has a belief in a messiah, it has a history of Al Capone style bigamists as rulers. It's a tale of sheer mayhem and carnage. This all powerful god allows all this, but his "son" is peaceful? And Jesus does miracles, none of which seem to relate to the Judaism we are shown in the Old Testament, or that which our Sunday School teachers tell us about.

Oh, and he cries out "Eloi, Eloi". And he is a prophet of Islam who is going to return on a horse to slay the false Messiah at the gates of Lyda. In addition, the Pope, so we are told if we come from an English background IS pretty much the anti-Christ hence justifying protestantism. So if he is the anti-Christ, who is the Christ?

I've pointed out that the name Christ is linguistically the same as Karas or Horus. These names are pronounced in ways we don't know today but the spelling has been chosen arbitrarily so it's not right to discount the argument that they are connected. The Christian cross is derived from the Egyptian Ankh which all gods carried. Pharoahs considered themselves to be Horus incarnate.

What is happening is that a lot of people have a lot of investment in maintaining the status quo as far as these religions are concerned.

As far as I have read Allah was the name of the god that both the Jews worshipped and who Jesus called Eloi. The Koran uses the name interchangeably as the god of the Jews, no matter what you say about it being a moon god. I am not sure at all how that gets you away from the issue anyway. The whole of Asia Minor, Turkey, venerates the Nazar despite Islam. It is a symbol which wards off evil, reminding people not to be jealous and covetous. Jesus was a Nazarene so either came from this sect or was born in a place, if it existed at all, which it probably didn't, named after the Nazar. And the Nazar is the eye of Horus which is an Egyptian motif and is the moon. It's not dot-joining, it's just obvious.

You need to look at the suppression of religions around the world. If you grew up in an English family you would know that the English talk all the time about their pagan past and the locating of Christian churches on ancient worhip grounds. English churches are almost all place near a Yew tree. The folklore and legend of England comes from somewhere. It didn't just pop out of then air.

The same goes for Shia Islam. It is suppressed Zoroastrianism with strong Christian themes such as the second coming of Christ. Syrian Allawites are a syncretic religion with a strong Christian element.

I grew up in North America and none of this meant anything to me. It might as well be talk of about another planet. But when you move out here, things aren't as you thought they would be. The Muslims I live near have a very materialistic, misogynistic attitude towards women. They don't read the Koran but they follow a handful of rituals such as fasting, call to prayer, they won't eat pork, they celebrate Abraham. Their attitude towards laws are entirely based on their adherence to their religion so it's impossible to find a lawyer here who has any concept of human justice as having anything to do with his profession. The Near East is just not as one would think it was and there is no trace of this Judaism which should have been a dominant religion in Syria, but there is ample evidence of the eye of Horus. Every car and house has one. It is more common by far around here than any other symbol. It's not at all hard to see where Ellis is coming from, if you want the truth, once you have live in this neck of the woods because nothing in the Old or New Testament relates to anything which is observable about this region of the world.

It's quite plain, and Muslims believe this as well, that their religion with all the barbarity, misogyny, animal sacrifice, vengeful god, is more true to the more ancient religion. As you point out, they didn't get it out of a book. No one read the book anyway. Both Judaism and Christianity are polemic works and Christianity is Hellenistic, aimed at undermining that religion. Since Islam or whatever you might want to call it back then, came from somewhere, it has to have been related to the worship of the stars, planets and the moon, and was a fertility based pagan religion with a "big man in the sky" as its god and the big man up there is Orion, followed by the 12 signs of the zodiac. It certainly did not come from a book.
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22-10-2016, 07:38 AM
RE: Vulgarity masqueraging as clever.
(24-07-2016 05:03 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  at typical day on an internet forum

Lets talk about god, not big G god but little g god, who we all talk about so he must exist.

You effing arse, go away.

No, come on, lets talk about it and make us some rules.

No, fuck off.

Ok, so lets start. He's big, scary and he has big hair.

You fucking revisionist, we've had your sort here before, and we ran them off.

Ok, so anybody know about the Illumiati, David Duke and Yetis? How about Paul. He proves Jesus was a myth.

Fuck you, you can't even spell Illuminati, you cunt.

Oh, sorry, I can but I have dyslexia. My dad was cross eyed.

Fuck you just because he was doesn't mean you can play that card, you moron. You were on that other forum, and got kicked off, now fuck off outa here, boy.

But this isn't fair, why is eveyone so nasty?

Cuz you are a cunt.

Now, come on, we should all be friends and talk about Hitler in Argentina.

You are an ass, insert Youtube link to donkey vid, Hole, insert video link to picture of black hole. You lying revisionist, asshole, no good for nothing prick, get outa here. And take Donald Trump with you. much lafter.(sp)

But what about Paul? Was he really Apolonius, and why did he change his name, from Nooky?

Oh, fuck off. Learn to spell. Moron.

Yup, it's a (sort of) democragtuc society here with a rather forgiving "police force".

Like in any democratic society the stupid and the truly intelligent have equal rights of comment and reply. Just as you would be silly to respond to idiots on the side-walk then it is equally silly here.

Let the less than intelligent have their say, then ignore them.

I will admit that the likes of theBorg do tend to get up my nose but the rest - may do a bit of winding up, otherwise, ignore them, they are usually all huff and puff.

If you want a gentler atheist forum try The Happy Atheist. If you want a humanist one try Think Humanism.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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22-10-2016, 08:13 AM
RE: Vulgarity masqueraging as clever.
(23-07-2016 11:50 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Here's the language he used:
vapid ... derision and mockery. whine your ass off about people not taking your bowl movement-esk ideas

make shit up and pass it off as "evidence" or "support" of your bullshit. Now fuck off outta my inbox kid.

Agreed, people really shouldn't share private discussions about 'bowl movements'.

Carry on. Girl_nails

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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