WHAT SACRIFICE?
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12-01-2014, 03:33 PM
WHAT SACRIFICE?
I have never understood the story of jesus. So god created the universe knowing ahead of time that people would sin, (and jesus was foreknown before the foundation of the world) in (1 PET 1:20). Despite God’s failed experiment in the Garden of Eden, the mass execution of Noah’s flood and the final solution of Christ’s sacrifice, Jesus was predestined to be crucified all along. "He was chosen before the creation of the world,"
So one day, he sends his son, to sacrifce himself for sin. How does torturing a person forgive the sins of others? is that just. If god is all powerful, just forgive people. Why sacrifice himself to himself. All powerful, all knowing, all loving god was left with no other option but to torture and kill someone. How is jesus death a scrifice in the first place? After all he did come back to life and now is in heaven ruling the world. Six hours of agony on the cross is pretty bad, but so is six months of agony from cancer. So god sacrificed himself so we could bypass a rule that god made himself and that god deliberately designed, knowing we will never be able to meet. The reason behind the sacrifice, is mankind’s original sin...makes no sense. Why blame Adam for a moral lapse that he couldn’t even understand? Remember that he hadn’t yet eaten the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, so who could blame him when he made a moral mistake? And how can we inherit original sin from Adam? Why blame us for something we didn’t do? That’s not justice, and the Bible agrees: Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin (Deut. 24:16). pay off my mortgage, the bank doesn’t in addition forgive my debt. There’s no longer a debt to forgive! Why imagine that God must forgive us after he’s already gotten his payment? Must Iron Age customs persist so that we need a human sacrifice?


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12-01-2014, 03:37 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
When its played out like that, it is so obviously bullshit... Written by people who didn't know the meaning of the words "proof reading" and "continuity"...

But people are just fuckin' crazy anyway...

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12-01-2014, 03:43 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
I am uncertain who mentioned it first, but it was hardly a sacrifice if Jesus rose from the dead three days after his death. It only would have been a sacrifice had he remained dead.
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12-01-2014, 03:44 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(12-01-2014 03:43 PM)Foxen Wrote:  I am uncertain who mentioned it first, but it was hardly a sacrifice if Jesus rose from the dead three days after his death. It only would have been a sacrifice had he remained dead.

Yes sir...
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12-01-2014, 06:10 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(12-01-2014 03:33 PM)truthBtold Wrote:  I have never understood the story of jesus. So god created the universe knowing ahead of time that people would sin, (and jesus was foreknown before the foundation of the world) in (1 PET 1:20). Despite God’s failed experiment in the Garden of Eden, the mass execution of Noah’s flood and the final solution of Christ’s sacrifice, Jesus was predestined to be crucified all along. "He was chosen before the creation of the world,"
So one day, he sends his son, to sacrifce himself for sin. How does torturing a person forgive the sins of others? is that just. If god is all powerful, just forgive people. Why sacrifice himself to himself. All powerful, all knowing, all loving god was left with no other option but to torture and kill someone. How is jesus death a scrifice in the first place? After all he did come back to life and now is in heaven ruling the world. Six hours of agony on the cross is pretty bad, but so is six months of agony from cancer. So god sacrificed himself so we could bypass a rule that god made himself and that god deliberately designed, knowing we will never be able to meet. The reason behind the sacrifice, is mankind’s original sin...makes no sense. Why blame Adam for a moral lapse that he couldn’t even understand? Remember that he hadn’t yet eaten the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, so who could blame him when he made a moral mistake? And how can we inherit original sin from Adam? Why blame us for something we didn’t do? That’s not justice, and the Bible agrees: Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin (Deut. 24:16). pay off my mortgage, the bank doesn’t in addition forgive my debt. There’s no longer a debt to forgive! Why imagine that God must forgive us after he’s already gotten his payment? Must Iron Age customs persist so that we need a human sacrifice?

I can answer all your questions.
1)It was God's plan that Adam and Eve would partake of the forbidden fruit.
2)He created all conditions that they would partake of this fruit.

So, what is His plan?
God Heavenly Father has many spirit children. Some of them are mentioned: Jesus Christ(Jehovah), Michael, Gabriel.
So all these children(spirits) are His Sons and Daughters live with Him. They grow. learn. But they can not progress/become like Father if they do not get new experience in the world like ours. God created this earth and this world where spirits(God's children) can obtain physical bodies and have new experiences and progression.
It is important to become subjects to any kind of evil. And depending on their choices in this life they can either progress or fall.
this world, this life is the test. Only here spirit children can prove that they can become like God.

So, because they fall(sin) they need Savior.
Why? Your question: why can't God just forgive?
Answer: because God Heavenly Father is Justice and Mercy at the same time.
If He just forgives then it will be Mercy but there will be no Justice.
If He punishes then it will be Justice but there will be no Mercy.
Atonement is solution. Spirits can make covenant with Christ. Christ pays for sins Justice. And after this he is able to forgive us - Mercy.
If you still have questions about this, please ask. I know you still have more questions.

God forgave Adam and Eve for breaking the law because it was part of His plan and because they didn't know that breaking God's law is sin/bad thing/evil thing.

Men will not be punished for Adam's sin but they will be punished for their own sins.

What was Jesus's sacrifice? What is sacrifice? Sacrifice is to do something that is very hard to do/don't want to do but do it any way because it is for the benefits of others. He sacrificed His body(went through pain).
There are more to tell but I don't want to make long post.

English is not my native language.
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12-01-2014, 08:19 PM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2014 09:21 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(12-01-2014 06:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(12-01-2014 03:33 PM)truthBtold Wrote:  I have never understood the story of jesus. So god created the universe knowing ahead of time that people would sin, (and jesus was foreknown before the foundation of the world) in (1 PET 1:20). Despite God’s failed experiment in the Garden of Eden, the mass execution of Noah’s flood and the final solution of Christ’s sacrifice, Jesus was predestined to be crucified all along. "He was chosen before the creation of the world,"
So one day, he sends his son, to sacrifce himself for sin. How does torturing a person forgive the sins of others? is that just. If god is all powerful, just forgive people. Why sacrifice himself to himself. All powerful, all knowing, all loving god was left with no other option but to torture and kill someone. How is jesus death a scrifice in the first place? After all he did come back to life and now is in heaven ruling the world. Six hours of agony on the cross is pretty bad, but so is six months of agony from cancer. So god sacrificed himself so we could bypass a rule that god made himself and that god deliberately designed, knowing we will never be able to meet. The reason behind the sacrifice, is mankind’s original sin...makes no sense. Why blame Adam for a moral lapse that he couldn’t even understand? Remember that he hadn’t yet eaten the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, so who could blame him when he made a moral mistake? And how can we inherit original sin from Adam? Why blame us for something we didn’t do? That’s not justice, and the Bible agrees: Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin (Deut. 24:16). pay off my mortgage, the bank doesn’t in addition forgive my debt. There’s no longer a debt to forgive! Why imagine that God must forgive us after he’s already gotten his payment? Must Iron Age customs persist so that we need a human sacrifice?

I can answer all your questions.
1)It was God's plan that Adam and Eve would partake of the forbidden fruit.
2)He created all conditions that they would partake of this fruit.

So, what is His plan?
God Heavenly Father has many spirit children. Some of them are mentioned: Jesus Christ(Jehovah), Michael, Gabriel.
So all these children(spirits) are His Sons and Daughters live with Him. They grow. learn. But they can not progress/become like Father if they do not get new experience in the world like ours. God created this earth and this world where spirits(God's children) can obtain physical bodies and have new experiences and progression.
It is important to become subjects to any kind of evil. And depending on their choices in this life they can either progress or fall.
this world, this life is the test. Only here spirit children can prove that they can become like God.

So, because they fall(sin) they need Savior.
Why? Your question: why can't God just forgive?
Answer: because God Heavenly Father is Justice and Mercy at the same time.
If He just forgives then it will be Mercy but there will be no Justice.
If He punishes then it will be Justice but there will be no Mercy.
Atonement is solution. Spirits can make covenant with Christ. Christ pays for sins Justice. And after this he is able to forgive us - Mercy.
If you still have questions about this, please ask. I know you still have more questions.

God forgave Adam and Eve for breaking the law because it was part of His plan and because they didn't know that breaking God's law is sin/bad thing/evil thing.

Men will not be punished for Adam's sin but they will be punished for their own sins.

What was Jesus's sacrifice? What is sacrifice? Sacrifice is to do something that is very hard to do/don't want to do but do it any way because it is for the benefits of others. He sacrificed His body(went through pain).
There are more to tell but I don't want to make long post.

Nice story, bro, but needs more dragons and vampires. Too boring that way. Your feeble attempt at fiction writing is commendable, but pretty pathetic.

So, according to that idiotic nonsense your deity PLANNED and INTENDED man to sin ? Hahaha. Nice god ya got there. Not too good in the planning department was he ? If your deity is subject to a system (of justice), it cannot be the creator of a system to which it is subject. There was no "fall" and no need for "salvation" in the OT. It was simply not present in Hebrew thought, (which I see you know nothing about). The messiah was an entirely political figure. But you wouldn't know that. It would have made no sense as a "spiritual savior", as they did not believe in immortality. If Adam and Eve didn't know they were sinning, any moral theologian would tell you they did not sin. One needs to ASSENT to commit sin. What idiotic drivel.

Actually when the young man asked Jebus (in Matthew) what he must do to gain eternal life, the response he got was NOT : "Just wait, I'll be dying for your sins". He was told to keep the commandments. THAT'S ALL. Proof, that the notion of "sacrifice" was later grafted onto the growing cult. The idea of "salvation" is entirely NON-Biblical, and in fact was added later. http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ins?page=2

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12-01-2014, 08:25 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(12-01-2014 06:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(12-01-2014 03:33 PM)truthBtold Wrote:  I have never understood the story of jesus. So god created the universe knowing ahead of time that people would sin, (and jesus was foreknown before the foundation of the world) in (1 PET 1:20). Despite God’s failed experiment in the Garden of Eden, the mass execution of Noah’s flood and the final solution of Christ’s sacrifice, Jesus was predestined to be crucified all along. "He was chosen before the creation of the world,"
So one day, he sends his son, to sacrifce himself for sin. How does torturing a person forgive the sins of others? is that just. If god is all powerful, just forgive people. Why sacrifice himself to himself. All powerful, all knowing, all loving god was left with no other option but to torture and kill someone. How is jesus death a scrifice in the first place? After all he did come back to life and now is in heaven ruling the world. Six hours of agony on the cross is pretty bad, but so is six months of agony from cancer. So god sacrificed himself so we could bypass a rule that god made himself and that god deliberately designed, knowing we will never be able to meet. The reason behind the sacrifice, is mankind’s original sin...makes no sense. Why blame Adam for a moral lapse that he couldn’t even understand? Remember that he hadn’t yet eaten the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, so who could blame him when he made a moral mistake? And how can we inherit original sin from Adam? Why blame us for something we didn’t do? That’s not justice, and the Bible agrees: Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin (Deut. 24:16). pay off my mortgage, the bank doesn’t in addition forgive my debt. There’s no longer a debt to forgive! Why imagine that God must forgive us after he’s already gotten his payment? Must Iron Age customs persist so that we need a human sacrifice?

I can answer all your questions.
1)It was God's plan that Adam and Eve would partake of the forbidden fruit.
2)He created all conditions that they would partake of this fruit.

So, what is His plan?
God Heavenly Father has many spirit children. Some of them are mentioned: Jesus Christ(Jehovah), Michael, Gabriel.
So all these children(spirits) are His Sons and Daughters live with Him. They grow. learn. But they can not progress/become like Father if they do not get new experience in the world like ours. God created this earth and this world where spirits(God's children) can obtain physical bodies and have new experiences and progression.
It is important to become subjects to any kind of evil. And depending on their choices in this life they can either progress or fall.
this world, this life is the test. Only here spirit children can prove that they can become like God.

So, because they fall(sin) they need Savior.
Why? Your question: why can't God just forgive?
Answer: because God Heavenly Father is Justice and Mercy at the same time.
If He just forgives then it will be Mercy but there will be no Justice.
If He punishes then it will be Justice but there will be no Mercy.
Atonement is solution. Spirits can make covenant with Christ. Christ pays for sins Justice. And after this he is able to forgive us - Mercy.
If you still have questions about this, please ask. I know you still have more questions.

God forgave Adam and Eve for breaking the law because it was part of His plan and because they didn't know that breaking God's law is sin/bad thing/evil thing.

Men will not be punished for Adam's sin but they will be punished for their own sins.

What was Jesus's sacrifice? What is sacrifice? Sacrifice is to do something that is very hard to do/don't want to do but do it any way because it is for the benefits of others. He sacrificed His body(went through pain).
There are more to tell but I don't want to make long post.

Do you have any evidence that any of that is true? Never mind. From other threads I know you will not answer that question. You mormons have taken the christianity story to whole other level of crazy.
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12-01-2014, 09:20 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(12-01-2014 06:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(12-01-2014 03:33 PM)truthBtold Wrote:  I have never understood the story of jesus. So god created the universe knowing ahead of time that people would sin, (and jesus was foreknown before the foundation of the world) in (1 PET 1:20). Despite God’s failed experiment in the Garden of Eden, the mass execution of Noah’s flood and the final solution of Christ’s sacrifice, Jesus was predestined to be crucified all along. "He was chosen before the creation of the world,"
So one day, he sends his son, to sacrifce himself for sin. How does torturing a person forgive the sins of others? is that just. If god is all powerful, just forgive people. Why sacrifice himself to himself. All powerful, all knowing, all loving god was left with no other option but to torture and kill someone. How is jesus death a scrifice in the first place? After all he did come back to life and now is in heaven ruling the world. Six hours of agony on the cross is pretty bad, but so is six months of agony from cancer. So god sacrificed himself so we could bypass a rule that god made himself and that god deliberately designed, knowing we will never be able to meet. The reason behind the sacrifice, is mankind’s original sin...makes no sense. Why blame Adam for a moral lapse that he couldn’t even understand? Remember that he hadn’t yet eaten the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, so who could blame him when he made a moral mistake? And how can we inherit original sin from Adam? Why blame us for something we didn’t do? That’s not justice, and the Bible agrees: Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin (Deut. 24:16). pay off my mortgage, the bank doesn’t in addition forgive my debt. There’s no longer a debt to forgive! Why imagine that God must forgive us after he’s already gotten his payment? Must Iron Age customs persist so that we need a human sacrifice?

I can answer all your questions.
1)It was God's plan that Adam and Eve would partake of the forbidden fruit.
2)He created all conditions that they would partake of this fruit.

So, what is His plan?
God Heavenly Father has many spirit children. Some of them are mentioned: Jesus Christ(Jehovah), Michael, Gabriel.
So all these children(spirits) are His Sons and Daughters live with Him. They grow. learn. But they can not progress/become like Father if they do not get new experience in the world like ours. God created this earth and this world where spirits(God's children) can obtain physical bodies and have new experiences and progression.
It is important to become subjects to any kind of evil. And depending on their choices in this life they can either progress or fall.
this world, this life is the test. Only here spirit children can prove that they can become like God.

So, because they fall(sin) they need Savior.
Why? Your question: why can't God just forgive?
Answer: because God Heavenly Father is Justice and Mercy at the same time.
If He just forgives then it will be Mercy but there will be no Justice.
If He punishes then it will be Justice but there will be no Mercy.
Atonement is solution. Spirits can make covenant with Christ. Christ pays for sins Justice. And after this he is able to forgive us - Mercy.
If you still have questions about this, please ask. I know you still have more questions.

God forgave Adam and Eve for breaking the law because it was part of His plan and because they didn't know that breaking God's law is sin/bad thing/evil thing.

Men will not be punished for Adam's sin but they will be punished for their own sins.

What was Jesus's sacrifice? What is sacrifice? Sacrifice is to do something that is very hard to do/don't want to do but do it any way because it is for the benefits of others. He sacrificed His body(went through pain).
There are more to tell but I don't want to make long post.

Maybe god just couldn't fess up that he screwed up in the first place. Instead of saying "Sorry, my bad." he decided to make up all this weird other shit that doesn't make sense to sort of cover for his incompetence.

Sounds like control freak issues. Sounds like my mom.

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12-01-2014, 09:49 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(12-01-2014 08:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Nice story, bro,
Sis. Not bro.
(12-01-2014 08:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  but needs more dragons and vampires. Too boring that way. Your feeble attempt at fiction writing is commendable, but pretty pathetic.
I don't mind boring as long as it is true.
(12-01-2014 08:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So, according to that idiotic nonsense your deity PLANNED and INTENDED man to sin ? Hahaha. Nice god ya got there.
Yes, He planned them to sin in innocence.
(12-01-2014 08:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Not too good in the planning department was he ? If your deity is subject to a system (of justice), it cannot be the creator of a system to which it is subject.
He never said He is the creator of the system.



(12-01-2014 08:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There was no "fall" and no need for "salvation" in the OT. It was simply not present in Hebrew thought, (which I see you know nothing about).
It was. This is why OT testifies about Jehovah(Yahweh) or Messiah or Jesus Christ.

(12-01-2014 08:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The messiah was an entirely political figure.
Who says?

(12-01-2014 08:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  But you wouldn't know that. It would have made no sense as a "spiritual savior", as they did not believe in immortality. If Adam and Eve didn't know they were sinning, any moral theologian would tell you they did not sin. One needs to ASSENT to commit sin. What idiotic drivel.
I don't care what theologians say. They have no authority from God to say anything. They sinned. They didn't know it is bad to sin. They didn't even know what sin is. But they did know what Father told them about the fruit. Father gave them 2 commandments. Adam chose one over the other.
Eve already ate the fruit. She became fallen and couldn't live in God's presence. Adam chose to break the second law and obey the first and very important by the way law - let man leave his farther and mother and cleave onto his wife and multiply and replenish.

(12-01-2014 08:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Actually when the young man asked Jebus (in Matthew) what he must do to gain eternal life, the response he got was NOT : "Just wait, I'll be dying for your sins". He was told to keep the commandments. THAT'S ALL. Proof, that the notion of "sacrifice" was later grafted onto the growing cult. The idea of "salvation" is entirely NON-Biblical, and in fact was added later. http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ins?page=2
Only those who keep His commandments are WORTHY of sacrifice.
But all people because of Christ will be saved from physical death(curse of Adam).
So, because Christ overcame sins He overcame death. That is why all people can be resurrected(salvation from death/hell).
but only those who make covenants with Christ will be saved from spiritual death. Only those who keep His commandments will be worthy to enter Celestial Glory.

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12-01-2014, 09:51 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(12-01-2014 08:25 PM)meremortal Wrote:  
(12-01-2014 06:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  I can answer all your questions.
1)It was God's plan that Adam and Eve would partake of the forbidden fruit.
2)He created all conditions that they would partake of this fruit.

So, what is His plan?
God Heavenly Father has many spirit children. Some of them are mentioned: Jesus Christ(Jehovah), Michael, Gabriel.
So all these children(spirits) are His Sons and Daughters live with Him. They grow. learn. But they can not progress/become like Father if they do not get new experience in the world like ours. God created this earth and this world where spirits(God's children) can obtain physical bodies and have new experiences and progression.
It is important to become subjects to any kind of evil. And depending on their choices in this life they can either progress or fall.
this world, this life is the test. Only here spirit children can prove that they can become like God.

So, because they fall(sin) they need Savior.
Why? Your question: why can't God just forgive?
Answer: because God Heavenly Father is Justice and Mercy at the same time.
If He just forgives then it will be Mercy but there will be no Justice.
If He punishes then it will be Justice but there will be no Mercy.
Atonement is solution. Spirits can make covenant with Christ. Christ pays for sins Justice. And after this he is able to forgive us - Mercy.
If you still have questions about this, please ask. I know you still have more questions.

God forgave Adam and Eve for breaking the law because it was part of His plan and because they didn't know that breaking God's law is sin/bad thing/evil thing.

Men will not be punished for Adam's sin but they will be punished for their own sins.

What was Jesus's sacrifice? What is sacrifice? Sacrifice is to do something that is very hard to do/don't want to do but do it any way because it is for the benefits of others. He sacrificed His body(went through pain).
There are more to tell but I don't want to make long post.

Do you have any evidence that any of that is true? Never mind. From other threads I know you will not answer that question. You mormons have taken the christianity story to whole other level of crazy.
No, I don't have any evidence but you may believe it. Or don't believe it.

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
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