WHAT SACRIFICE?
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18-01-2014, 02:58 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(12-01-2014 06:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  Men will not be punished for Adam's sin but they will be punished for their own sins.

So, Adam sin was in God's plan. Are our sins in God's plan, too?

Ciao

- viole
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18-01-2014, 07:51 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(18-01-2014 02:00 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 10:40 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  So please answer the question. Who were Asherah and Baal?

Where does Elohim live now?

What's his role?

Um....if you read the OT, Yahweh lived in the temple.

When did Yahweh leave Judea?

Well, do you want the answer supported by modern biblical scholarship and archeology? (Which I imagine you already know.)

Or do you want some boilerplate Mormon apologetics delivered through Alla's filter?

boilerplate Mormon apologetics delivered through Alla's filter
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18-01-2014, 08:05 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(18-01-2014 10:00 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 10:40 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  So please answer the question. Who were Asherah and Baal?
I don't know

(17-01-2014 10:40 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Where does Elohim live now?
He didn't reveal.

(17-01-2014 10:40 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  What's his role?
He is the Father of the spirits of all flesh.

(17-01-2014 10:40 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Um....if you read the OT, Yahweh lived in the temple.
And your point?

(17-01-2014 10:40 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  When did Yahweh leave Judea?
When He was killed, then after He was resurrected.

Alla...here is some real history....

Most contemporary (to the ancient Jews) cultures at the time were polytheistic; they believed in the co-existence of multiple gods, and the early Israelites were no different. Elohim, or "El" was the chief, but not the only god, in the confederation's territory. “Israel” actually means "walks with El." El was said to be the father of mankind and all creatures. He had a goddess wife, Asherah, who was also worshipped, although she’s also sometimes depicted as being another god’s, Yahweh’s (the god of the army’s) wife or consort. (http://www.matrifocus.com/LAM04/spotlight.htm). Statues of her have been found in Jerusalem, Dan, and Beth-el. Baal, the son of El and Asherah, was the ancient Canaanite god of fertility. He had a sister goddess named Anat, and there were many others.

The traditional tale in the Tanakh paints a different picture. It claims that the Hebrews were monotheistic from the time of Abraham on. So the story in which Yahweh reveals himself to Abraham to be the one and only deity in the universe is most definitely fictional. The timing of the Jews becoming monotheists as described in the Tanakh is overoptimistic by more than a thousand years. In the older writings of the Old Testament, originally written by polytheists, the many different names of God have been changed by editors to make it appear as though they are all referring to Yahweh, who superseded El as the chief, and only, Jewish god. This didn’t start to happen until at least the 6th century BCE. Hence there are scores of stories in the Old Testament where Jewish people are castigated or murdered, often under priest’s orders, for worshipping the wrong god or gods.

The Tribal Confederation was structured differently from its neighbors, who all had kings as their central authorities, and the tribes prided themselves on this uniqueness. Rather than having a king, they had one of their gods, Yahweh, as a “leader.” He was an action hero, the
“god of the armies,” the
"Lord of Hosts." (A "host" is an assembled army.) Yahweh was perceived as "acting" in the history of those who worshiped him, so he was very different from other, more passive gods.

In 640 BCE, there were still plenty of popular cults with different gods in the grounds of the Temple in Jerusalem, and the early Jewish kings at this time were still polytheists. King Josiah ruled Judea, although many Judeans were rural people without a strong allegiance to Jerusalem or their king. Josiah thought these disunited people weren’t likely to oppose an invading army. He wanted power centralized in Jerusalem, so he and his priests decided to rally the people around a belief in only one all-powerful god; Yahweh, the god of the armies, who was now to be worshipped in Jerusalem only. Two other centers of Yahweh worship, one in Beth-El, North of Jerusalem, and one, up in the far North at Dan, were shut down. The temple was purged of all other gods. Any mentions of them in scripture were later transformed into human characters, and often servants of Yahweh.

It took a couple of centuries more before ancient Hebrew polytheism was completely eradicated. I think it’s a shame Asherah, Anat and other female gods were taken out of the picture, because Christianity, and possibly Islam, might have been a lot less sexist if they hadn’t been.

It’s often said that Jews were the first people to be monotheists, but it’s not true. Egyptians had worshipped a single sun god, Ra, for at least a thousand years before the alleged time of Moses, and the practitioners of Zoroastrianism, from which many Judaic concepts are derived, also worshipped the one sun god. (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articl...strianism, http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entr...trianism).
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18-01-2014, 09:02 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(18-01-2014 02:58 PM)viole Wrote:  
(12-01-2014 06:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  Men will not be punished for Adam's sin but they will be punished for their own sins.

So, Adam sin was in God's plan. Are our sins in God's plan, too?

Ciao

- viole
No, only Adam's sin was plan. We don't have to sin. But the question is this: can we do this? not to sin?

English is not my native language.
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18-01-2014, 09:13 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(18-01-2014 08:05 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 10:00 AM)Alla Wrote:  I don't know

He didn't reveal.

He is the Father of the spirits of all flesh.

And your point?

When He was killed, then after He was resurrected.

Alla...here is some real history....

Most contemporary (to the ancient Jews) cultures at the time were polytheistic; they believed in the co-existence of multiple gods, and the early Israelites were no different. Elohim, or "El" was the chief, but not the only god, in the confederation's territory. “Israel” actually means "walks with El." El was said to be the father of mankind and all creatures. He had a goddess wife, Asherah, who was also worshipped, although she’s also sometimes depicted as being another god’s, Yahweh’s (the god of the army’s) wife or consort. (http://www.matrifocus.com/LAM04/spotlight.htm). Statues of her have been found in Jerusalem, Dan, and Beth-el. Baal, the son of El and Asherah, was the ancient Canaanite god of fertility. He had a sister goddess named Anat, and there were many others.

The traditional tale in the Tanakh paints a different picture. It claims that the Hebrews were monotheistic from the time of Abraham on. So the story in which Yahweh reveals himself to Abraham to be the one and only deity in the universe is most definitely fictional. The timing of the Jews becoming monotheists as described in the Tanakh is overoptimistic by more than a thousand years. In the older writings of the Old Testament, originally written by polytheists, the many different names of God have been changed by editors to make it appear as though they are all referring to Yahweh, who superseded El as the chief, and only, Jewish god. This didn’t start to happen until at least the 6th century BCE. Hence there are scores of stories in the Old Testament where Jewish people are castigated or murdered, often under priest’s orders, for worshipping the wrong god or gods.

The Tribal Confederation was structured differently from its neighbors, who all had kings as their central authorities, and the tribes prided themselves on this uniqueness. Rather than having a king, they had one of their gods, Yahweh, as a “leader.” He was an action hero, the
“god of the armies,” the
"Lord of Hosts." (A "host" is an assembled army.) Yahweh was perceived as "acting" in the history of those who worshiped him, so he was very different from other, more passive gods.

In 640 BCE, there were still plenty of popular cults with different gods in the grounds of the Temple in Jerusalem, and the early Jewish kings at this time were still polytheists. King Josiah ruled Judea, although many Judeans were rural people without a strong allegiance to Jerusalem or their king. Josiah thought these disunited people weren’t likely to oppose an invading army. He wanted power centralized in Jerusalem, so he and his priests decided to rally the people around a belief in only one all-powerful god; Yahweh, the god of the armies, who was now to be worshipped in Jerusalem only. Two other centers of Yahweh worship, one in Beth-El, North of Jerusalem, and one, up in the far North at Dan, were shut down. The temple was purged of all other gods. Any mentions of them in scripture were later transformed into human characters, and often servants of Yahweh.

It took a couple of centuries more before ancient Hebrew polytheism was completely eradicated. I think it’s a shame Asherah, Anat and other female gods were taken out of the picture, because Christianity, and possibly Islam, might have been a lot less sexist if they hadn’t been.

It’s often said that Jews were the first people to be monotheists, but it’s not true. Egyptians had worshipped a single sun god, Ra, for at least a thousand years before the alleged time of Moses, and the practitioners of Zoroastrianism, from which many Judaic concepts are derived, also worshipped the one sun god. (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articl...strianism, http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entr...trianism).
Thanks for your post. I am glad I learned it.
I believe that Elohim has wife, possibly wives. So I have Heavenly Parents. Heavenly Father Elohim and Heavenly Mother.
Only I don't know Her name. No, it is better to say I don't remember Her name.
And Yahweh is one of my Brothers. He is Creator of this physical Earth. He became God of Israel.

English is not my native language.
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19-01-2014, 01:30 AM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2014 02:39 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(18-01-2014 09:13 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 08:05 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Alla...here is some real history....

Most contemporary (to the ancient Jews) cultures at the time were polytheistic; they believed in the co-existence of multiple gods, and the early Israelites were no different. Elohim, or "El" was the chief, but not the only god, in the confederation's territory. “Israel” actually means "walks with El." El was said to be the father of mankind and all creatures. He had a goddess wife, Asherah, who was also worshipped, although she’s also sometimes depicted as being another god’s, Yahweh’s (the god of the army’s) wife or consort. (http://www.matrifocus.com/LAM04/spotlight.htm). Statues of her have been found in Jerusalem, Dan, and Beth-el. Baal, the son of El and Asherah, was the ancient Canaanite god of fertility. He had a sister goddess named Anat, and there were many others.

The traditional tale in the Tanakh paints a different picture. It claims that the Hebrews were monotheistic from the time of Abraham on. So the story in which Yahweh reveals himself to Abraham to be the one and only deity in the universe is most definitely fictional. The timing of the Jews becoming monotheists as described in the Tanakh is overoptimistic by more than a thousand years. In the older writings of the Old Testament, originally written by polytheists, the many different names of God have been changed by editors to make it appear as though they are all referring to Yahweh, who superseded El as the chief, and only, Jewish god. This didn’t start to happen until at least the 6th century BCE. Hence there are scores of stories in the Old Testament where Jewish people are castigated or murdered, often under priest’s orders, for worshipping the wrong god or gods.

The Tribal Confederation was structured differently from its neighbors, who all had kings as their central authorities, and the tribes prided themselves on this uniqueness. Rather than having a king, they had one of their gods, Yahweh, as a “leader.” He was an action hero, the
“god of the armies,” the
"Lord of Hosts." (A "host" is an assembled army.) Yahweh was perceived as "acting" in the history of those who worshiped him, so he was very different from other, more passive gods.

In 640 BCE, there were still plenty of popular cults with different gods in the grounds of the Temple in Jerusalem, and the early Jewish kings at this time were still polytheists. King Josiah ruled Judea, although many Judeans were rural people without a strong allegiance to Jerusalem or their king. Josiah thought these disunited people weren’t likely to oppose an invading army. He wanted power centralized in Jerusalem, so he and his priests decided to rally the people around a belief in only one all-powerful god; Yahweh, the god of the armies, who was now to be worshipped in Jerusalem only. Two other centers of Yahweh worship, one in Beth-El, North of Jerusalem, and one, up in the far North at Dan, were shut down. The temple was purged of all other gods. Any mentions of them in scripture were later transformed into human characters, and often servants of Yahweh.

It took a couple of centuries more before ancient Hebrew polytheism was completely eradicated. I think it’s a shame Asherah, Anat and other female gods were taken out of the picture, because Christianity, and possibly Islam, might have been a lot less sexist if they hadn’t been.

It’s often said that Jews were the first people to be monotheists, but it’s not true. Egyptians had worshipped a single sun god, Ra, for at least a thousand years before the alleged time of Moses, and the practitioners of Zoroastrianism, from which many Judaic concepts are derived, also worshipped the one sun god. (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articl...strianism, http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entr...trianism).
Thanks for your post. I am glad I learned it.
I believe that Elohim has wife, possibly wives. So I have Heavenly Parents. Heavenly Father Elohim and Heavenly Mother.
Only I don't know Her name. No, it is better to say I don't remember Her name.
And Yahweh is one of my Brothers. He is Creator of this physical Earth. He became God of Israel.

"Thanks for your post. I am glad I learned it."
I'm glad you read it!

"I believe that Elohim has wife, possibly wives."
Mmmmmm. Just like Joseph Smith then?
Was Elohim's first wife really pissed off about the other wives, just like Mrs Smith?

"So I have Heavenly Parents. Heavenly Father Elohim and Heavenly Mother. Only I don't know Her name."

It's Asherah; just "Ash" to her friends. I'm sure you can call her "mum" or "Auntie Ash."

So.....um......you're really the daughter of Elohim? And you're Yahweh's sister! Wow! Come to think of it, as you think "Yahweh=Jesus," you're also Jesus' sister! You've got some interesting family ties there! Did you get together with the guys at Christmas? What's that naughty brother of yours up to nowadays? Still hanging around with the wrong crowd?
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19-01-2014, 02:36 AM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(19-01-2014 01:30 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Mmmmmm. Just like Joseph Smith then?
Yes.
(19-01-2014 01:30 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Was Elohim's first wife really pissed off about the other wives, just like Mrs Smith?
It is very, very possible. Who can blame them?

(19-01-2014 01:30 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  So.....um......you're really the daughter of Elohim? And you're Yahweh's sister! Wow! Come to think of it, as you think Yahweh is Jesus, you're also Jesus' sister! You've got some interesting family ties there!
Yes, very interesting. So do you by the way.

(19-01-2014 01:30 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Did you get together with the guys at Christmas? What's that naughty brother of yours up to nowadays? Still hanging around with the wrong crowd?
Smile

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20-01-2014, 03:27 PM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2014 09:27 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
That's really interesting.

I guess you're related to Joseph Smith too then?
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20-01-2014, 09:11 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(18-01-2014 07:51 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 02:00 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Well, do you want the answer supported by modern biblical scholarship and archeology? (Which I imagine you already know.)

Or do you want some boilerplate Mormon apologetics delivered through Alla's filter?

boilerplate Mormon apologetics delivered through Alla's filter

...which was all you were going to fucking get anyway

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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20-01-2014, 09:52 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(20-01-2014 09:11 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 07:51 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  boilerplate Mormon apologetics delivered through Alla's filter

...which was all you were going to fucking get anyway

yeah but it's entertaining. For a while. Then the novelty wears off.
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