WHAT SACRIFICE?
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12-01-2014, 09:55 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(12-01-2014 03:33 PM)truthBtold Wrote:  I have never understood the story of jesus. So god created the universe knowing ahead of time that people would sin, (and jesus was foreknown before the foundation of the world) in (1 PET 1:20). Despite God’s failed experiment in the Garden of Eden, the mass execution of Noah’s flood and the final solution of Christ’s sacrifice, Jesus was predestined to be crucified all along. "He was chosen before the creation of the world,"
So one day, he sends his son, to sacrifce himself for sin. How does torturing a person forgive the sins of others? is that just. If god is all powerful, just forgive people. Why sacrifice himself to himself. All powerful, all knowing, all loving god was left with no other option but to torture and kill someone. How is jesus death a scrifice in the first place? After all he did come back to life and now is in heaven ruling the world. Six hours of agony on the cross is pretty bad, but so is six months of agony from cancer. So god sacrificed himself so we could bypass a rule that god made himself and that god deliberately designed, knowing we will never be able to meet. The reason behind the sacrifice, is mankind’s original sin...makes no sense. Why blame Adam for a moral lapse that he couldn’t even understand? Remember that he hadn’t yet eaten the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, so who could blame him when he made a moral mistake? And how can we inherit original sin from Adam? Why blame us for something we didn’t do? That’s not justice, and the Bible agrees: Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin (Deut. 24:16). pay off my mortgage, the bank doesn’t in addition forgive my debt. There’s no longer a debt to forgive! Why imagine that God must forgive us after he’s already gotten his payment? Must Iron Age customs persist so that we need a human sacrifice?


A few hours pain to become emperor of the universe.

Yeah, some sacrifice . . .

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12-01-2014, 10:10 PM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2014 10:15 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(12-01-2014 09:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  I don't mind boring as long as it is true.

It's both boring and false. Unfortunately saying something is true, doesn't make it so. You made all that shit up, and have not a shred of proof for any of it.
And in fact if you had any education in that culture you would know how ridiculous it all is.

(12-01-2014 09:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  Yes, He planned them to sin in innocence.

There is NO theologian on the face of the earth that would agree with that nonsense. If they were "innocent" they would not need redemption. What a pathetic attempt to make sense of an idiotic pile of dung. Sin requires assent of the will, (in Christian theology, which I see you know NOTHING about). There is NO one who says they "innocently sinned", other then you.

(12-01-2014 09:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  He never said He is the creator of the system.

A deity which is not the creator of Reality is no god worth worshiping.
Are you retarded, or mentally ill ?

(12-01-2014 09:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  It was. This is why OT testifies about Jehovah(Yahweh) or Messiah or Jesus Christ.

It was not. Typing a title or repeating a name proves NOTHING, and demonstrates you, in fact, know nothing about this subject.

(12-01-2014 09:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  Who says?

That's what I thought. You know nothing about Hebrew culture, or the Bible, really. You make up shit, and expect people to buy it, You are a snake-oil salesman. A charlatan.

(12-01-2014 09:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  I don't care what theologians say. They have no authority from God to say anything. They sinned. They didn't know it is bad to sin. They didn't even know what sin is. But they did know what Father told them about the fruit. Father gave them 2 commandments. Adam chose one over the other.

And YOU think YOU know more than theologians ? Hahaha. Adam and Eve were MYTHS. I can PROVE they never existed, (by DNA).

(12-01-2014 09:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  Eve already ate the fruit. She became fallen and couldn't live in God's presence. Adam chose to break the second law and obey the first and very important by the way law - let man leave his farther and mother and cleave onto his wife and multiply and replenish.

Bullshit. All a made up story. You have no proof. You tell stories. Biblical scholars, (which YOU are NOT), KNOW and teach it is a MYTH.
It NEVER happened.

(12-01-2014 09:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  Only those who keep His commandments are WORTHY of sacrifice.

Those who keep the commandments don't NEED a sacrifice.

(12-01-2014 09:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  But all people because of Christ will be saved from physical death(curse of Adam).
So, because Christ overcame sins He overcame death. That is why all people can be resurrected(salvation from death/hell).
but only those who make covenants with Christ will be saved from spiritual death. Only those who keep His commandments will be worthy to enter Celestial Glory.

Complete crap. All bullshit. You have no proof any of it is true.
All life on Earth DIED BEFORE Adam came along, (in your world). There is no belief in immortality in the OT. Jebus never said anyone had to make a covenant with him. He said to keep the commandments. You think YOU get to make up shit, and present it as having come form Jebus ? Jebus "overcame" nothing. He was executed. People still sin. "Celestial glory" is a childish fairy story. You need to PROVE anything you say. So far you're batting zero.

Try harder
Tongue

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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12-01-2014, 10:12 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(12-01-2014 09:55 PM)Beccs Wrote:  
(12-01-2014 03:33 PM)truthBtold Wrote:  I have never understood the story of jesus. So god created the universe knowing ahead of time that people would sin, (and jesus was foreknown before the foundation of the world) in (1 PET 1:20). Despite God’s failed experiment in the Garden of Eden, the mass execution of Noah’s flood and the final solution of Christ’s sacrifice, Jesus was predestined to be crucified all along. "He was chosen before the creation of the world,"
So one day, he sends his son, to sacrifce himself for sin. How does torturing a person forgive the sins of others? is that just. If god is all powerful, just forgive people. Why sacrifice himself to himself. All powerful, all knowing, all loving god was left with no other option but to torture and kill someone. How is jesus death a scrifice in the first place? After all he did come back to life and now is in heaven ruling the world. Six hours of agony on the cross is pretty bad, but so is six months of agony from cancer. So god sacrificed himself so we could bypass a rule that god made himself and that god deliberately designed, knowing we will never be able to meet. The reason behind the sacrifice, is mankind’s original sin...makes no sense. Why blame Adam for a moral lapse that he couldn’t even understand? Remember that he hadn’t yet eaten the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, so who could blame him when he made a moral mistake? And how can we inherit original sin from Adam? Why blame us for something we didn’t do? That’s not justice, and the Bible agrees: Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin (Deut. 24:16). pay off my mortgage, the bank doesn’t in addition forgive my debt. There’s no longer a debt to forgive! Why imagine that God must forgive us after he’s already gotten his payment? Must Iron Age customs persist so that we need a human sacrifice?


A few hours pain to become emperor of the universe.

Yeah, some sacrifice . . .

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To all that responded to my post... thanks. The answers that were given defending christianity just made my eyes cross!!!
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12-01-2014, 10:17 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(12-01-2014 03:43 PM)Foxen Wrote:  I am uncertain who mentioned it first, but it was hardly a sacrifice if Jesus rose from the dead three days after his death. It only would have been a sacrifice had he remained dead.

I know I've said somewhere around here Jesus would have had to go to Hell, after being crucified, to be butt raped by the Devil for eternity (so that we would not ever need to) to be a TRUE sacrifice Undecided
Meh.

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12-01-2014, 10:22 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(12-01-2014 03:43 PM)Foxen Wrote:  I am uncertain who mentioned it first, but it was hardly a sacrifice if Jesus rose from the dead three days after his death. It only would have been a sacrifice had he remained dead.

Well, to be fair... It must have hurt like fuck.

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12-01-2014, 10:34 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(12-01-2014 10:10 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(12-01-2014 09:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  I don't mind boring as long as it is true.

It's both boring and false. Unfortunately saying something is true, doesn't make it so. You made all that shit up, and have not a shred of proof for any of it.
And in fact if you had any education in that culture you would know how ridiculous it all is.

(12-01-2014 09:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  Yes, He planned them to sin in innocence.

There is NO theologian on the face of the earth that would agree with that nonsense. If they were "innocent" they would not need redemption. What a pathetic attempt to make sense of an idiotic pile of dung. Sin requires assent of the will, (in Christian theology, which I see you know NOTHING about). There is NO one who says they "innocently sinned", other then you.

(12-01-2014 09:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  He never said He is the creator of the system.

A deity which is not the creator of Reality is no god worth worshiping.
Are you retarded, or mentally ill ?

(12-01-2014 09:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  It was. This is why OT testifies about Jehovah(Yahweh) or Messiah or Jesus Christ.

It was not. Typing a title or repeating a name proves NOTHING, and demonstrates you, in fact, know nothing about this subject.

(12-01-2014 09:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  Who says?

That's what I thought. You know nothing about Hebrew culture, or the Bible, really. You make up shit, and expect people to buy it, You are a snake-oil salesman. A charlatan.

(12-01-2014 09:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  I don't care what theologians say. They have no authority from God to say anything. They sinned. They didn't know it is bad to sin. They didn't even know what sin is. But they did know what Father told them about the fruit. Father gave them 2 commandments. Adam chose one over the other.

And YOU think YOU know more than theologians ? Hahaha. Adam and Eve were MYTHS. I can PROVE they never existed, (by DNA).

(12-01-2014 09:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  Eve already ate the fruit. She became fallen and couldn't live in God's presence. Adam chose to break the second law and obey the first and very important by the way law - let man leave his farther and mother and cleave onto his wife and multiply and replenish.

Bullshit. All a made up story. You have no proof. You tell stories. Biblical scholars, (which YOU are NOT), KNOW and teach it is a MYTH.
It NEVER happened.

(12-01-2014 09:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  Only those who keep His commandments are WORTHY of sacrifice.

Those who keep the commandments don't NEED a sacrifice.

(12-01-2014 09:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  But all people because of Christ will be saved from physical death(curse of Adam).
So, because Christ overcame sins He overcame death. That is why all people can be resurrected(salvation from death/hell).
but only those who make covenants with Christ will be saved from spiritual death. Only those who keep His commandments will be worthy to enter Celestial Glory.

Complete crap. All bullshit. You have no proof any of it is true.
All life on Earth DIED BEFORE Adam came along, (in your world). There is no belief in immortality in the OT. Jebus never said anyone had to make a covenant with him. He said to keep the commandments. You think YOU get to make up shit, and present it as having come form Jebus ? Jebus "overcame" nothing. He was executed. People still sin. "Celestial glory" is a childish fairy story. You need to PROVE anything you say. So far you're batting zero.

Try harder
Tongue

there is proof out there.. you just have to look for it.. But as I noticed most people in this forum would rather take the word of someone behind a computer screen over fact. especially when the proof is against what they believe in. You are right in saying that man still sins.. and if you have noticed over the decades.. there are more and more sins out there and more grotesque than before.. but to God, it doesn't matter what the sin is. a sin is a sin.. no such thing as a "little sin" that like saying "almost pregnant".
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12-01-2014, 10:39 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
Sacrificing yourself to yourself to appease yourself seems totally legit.



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12-01-2014, 10:40 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(12-01-2014 10:34 PM)Seacaptain58 Wrote:  
(12-01-2014 10:10 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It's both boring and false. Unfortunately saying something is true, doesn't make it so. You made all that shit up, and have not a shred of proof for any of it.
And in fact if you had any education in that culture you would know how ridiculous it all is.


There is NO theologian on the face of the earth that would agree with that nonsense. If they were "innocent" they would not need redemption. What a pathetic attempt to make sense of an idiotic pile of dung. Sin requires assent of the will, (in Christian theology, which I see you know NOTHING about). There is NO one who says they "innocently sinned", other then you.


A deity which is not the creator of Reality is no god worth worshiping.
Are you retarded, or mentally ill ?


It was not. Typing a title or repeating a name proves NOTHING, and demonstrates you, in fact, know nothing about this subject.


That's what I thought. You know nothing about Hebrew culture, or the Bible, really. You make up shit, and expect people to buy it, You are a snake-oil salesman. A charlatan.


And YOU think YOU know more than theologians ? Hahaha. Adam and Eve were MYTHS. I can PROVE they never existed, (by DNA).


Bullshit. All a made up story. You have no proof. You tell stories. Biblical scholars, (which YOU are NOT), KNOW and teach it is a MYTH.
It NEVER happened.


Those who keep the commandments don't NEED a sacrifice.


Complete crap. All bullshit. You have no proof any of it is true.
All life on Earth DIED BEFORE Adam came along, (in your world). There is no belief in immortality in the OT. Jebus never said anyone had to make a covenant with him. He said to keep the commandments. You think YOU get to make up shit, and present it as having come form Jebus ? Jebus "overcame" nothing. He was executed. People still sin. "Celestial glory" is a childish fairy story. You need to PROVE anything you say. So far you're batting zero.

Try harder
Tongue

there is proof out there.. you just have to look for it.. But as I noticed most people in this forum would rather take the word of someone behind a computer screen over fact. especially when the proof is against what they believe in. You are right in saying that man still sins.. and if you have noticed over the decades.. there are more and more sins out there and more grotesque than before.. but to God, it doesn't matter what the sin is. a sin is a sin.. no such thing as a "little sin" that like saying "almost pregnant".

Proof of what ? Adam and Eve ?
You can't be serious.
And interesting YOU also know nothing about your religion.
Something for which there is "proof" needs no faith. I though St. Paul said faith was one of the gifts of the spirit ? If there is proof, faith is unnecessary.
How come you people know nothing about your cult ?

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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12-01-2014, 10:53 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(12-01-2014 10:40 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(12-01-2014 10:34 PM)Seacaptain58 Wrote:  there is proof out there.. you just have to look for it.. But as I noticed most people in this forum would rather take the word of someone behind a computer screen over fact. especially when the proof is against what they believe in. You are right in saying that man still sins.. and if you have noticed over the decades.. there are more and more sins out there and more grotesque than before.. but to God, it doesn't matter what the sin is. a sin is a sin.. no such thing as a "little sin" that like saying "almost pregnant".

Proof of what ? Adam and Eve ?
You can't be serious.
And interesting YOU also know nothing about your religion.
Something for which there is "proof" needs no faith. I though St. Paul said faith was one of the gifts of the spirit ? If there is proof, faith is unnecessary.
How come you people know nothing about your cult ?
I can already see that you are a polemist. I am glad that you know everything about me especially about my religion. As for faith and "proof", there is "proof that you have windows in your vehicle, you have "faith" the windows will keep out the rain. As for St. Paul.. I am not Catholics, nor Mormon, Hmm it thought you knew that.. again.. pure speculation on something you know nothing about.. enjoy and have fun.
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12-01-2014, 11:38 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(12-01-2014 10:34 PM)Seacaptain58 Wrote:  
(12-01-2014 10:10 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It's both boring and false. Unfortunately saying something is true, doesn't make it so. You made all that shit up, and have not a shred of proof for any of it.
And in fact if you had any education in that culture you would know how ridiculous it all is.


There is NO theologian on the face of the earth that would agree with that nonsense. If they were "innocent" they would not need redemption. What a pathetic attempt to make sense of an idiotic pile of dung. Sin requires assent of the will, (in Christian theology, which I see you know NOTHING about). There is NO one who says they "innocently sinned", other then you.


A deity which is not the creator of Reality is no god worth worshiping.
Are you retarded, or mentally ill ?


It was not. Typing a title or repeating a name proves NOTHING, and demonstrates you, in fact, know nothing about this subject.


That's what I thought. You know nothing about Hebrew culture, or the Bible, really. You make up shit, and expect people to buy it, You are a snake-oil salesman. A charlatan.


And YOU think YOU know more than theologians ? Hahaha. Adam and Eve were MYTHS. I can PROVE they never existed, (by DNA).


Bullshit. All a made up story. You have no proof. You tell stories. Biblical scholars, (which YOU are NOT), KNOW and teach it is a MYTH.
It NEVER happened.


Those who keep the commandments don't NEED a sacrifice.


Complete crap. All bullshit. You have no proof any of it is true.
All life on Earth DIED BEFORE Adam came along, (in your world). There is no belief in immortality in the OT. Jebus never said anyone had to make a covenant with him. He said to keep the commandments. You think YOU get to make up shit, and present it as having come form Jebus ? Jebus "overcame" nothing. He was executed. People still sin. "Celestial glory" is a childish fairy story. You need to PROVE anything you say. So far you're batting zero.

Try harder
Tongue

there is proof out there.. you just have to look for it.. But as I noticed most people in this forum would rather take the word of someone behind a computer screen over fact. especially when the proof is against what they believe in. You are right in saying that man still sins.. and if you have noticed over the decades.. there are more and more sins out there and more grotesque than before.. but to God, it doesn't matter what the sin is. a sin is a sin.. no such thing as a "little sin" that like saying "almost pregnant".


Dude, if you could project any harder, you'd be etching your name on the surface of the moon. Drinking Beverage

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