WHAT SACRIFICE?
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15-01-2014, 10:47 AM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(15-01-2014 08:28 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Some days I'm just damned proud to call myself pagan.
To be honest anything is better than being a MormonConfused

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Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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15-01-2014, 11:14 AM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(15-01-2014 10:47 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 08:28 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Some days I'm just damned proud to call myself pagan.
To be honest anything is better than being a MormonConfused

Nah, Scientology is even crazier.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-01-2014, 11:19 AM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(15-01-2014 11:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  Nah, Scientology is even crazier.
Damn it.. tom cruise made it look cool! Weeping

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
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16-01-2014, 04:17 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(14-01-2014 08:29 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-01-2014 07:24 PM)Baruch Wrote:  I thought Alla was supposed to belong to the monotheists - she now sounds pagan !!!

Kind of like Apollo killing Zeus.

To be technically more accurate its the god Osiris becoming resurrected after being killed by the god Set.

pagan is to worship false gods.
I worship true Gods: God Father Elohim, God Son Jehovah(Yahweh) and God Son Holy Ghost who are one God in purpose.

Paganism is worshiping more than one God.
Quote:Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD Deut 6:4
שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד

Sorry Alla but you fit into the pagan category - worshiping many gods.
(of course false gods would be paganism as you say - to be technically accurate Yahweh is the one God and the holy ghost & jesus are the pagan idols.)

Anyway - I lack all the deities these days. I just happen to know about monotheism because I used to be religious for 10 years and studied hebrew scriptures in depth & at the time was a true believer.
I also know about paganism due to hanging around and befriending many people from different belief systems from wicca to Christians to Hindu's and even Alistair crawley followers (creepy....)

Bottom line Alla - some pagan ideas have creeped into Mormonism.

In any case one can find pagan overtones in the Hebrew scriptures themselves with "God being jealous of other gods"
Quote:Ex 34:14 "Do not worship any other god (El - singular for elohim), for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."
כִּי לֹא תִשְׁתַּחֲוֶה, לְאֵל אַחֵר: כִּי יְהוָה קַנָּא שְׁמוֹ, אֵל קַנָּא הוּא.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
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16-01-2014, 04:42 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
ALLA :


Quote:
(13-01-2014 07:12 PM)Baruch Wrote:  This is exactly my point - God sacrificing his Son is pathetic compared to the sacrifice stories I mentioned in the previous post where people suffered much more brutal tortures, for much longer and without resurrections !
Nobody suffered as Jesus did. Nobody. Atonement means that He suffered all kinds of pains that exists in this world. He felt every pain every and all humans ever felt.
Nobody can agree to take all these pains willfully. He did it willfully.


No Alla - Jesus most certainly DID NOT suffer every pain every human has ever felt. That is seriously fictional. In any case there comes a point when a pain threshold is reached and "more" pain doesn't add any extra suffering (we only have a limited capacity for emotional & physical pain - at some point pain threshold kicks in and "more torture" cannot add more pain because pain receptors have reached their threshold limit.
The key insight here is duration is just as important as intensity. (intensity having its limits)
In fact there are medicines which exploit this very process and army in special forces are also trained to utilize this process.
To counter this there are torture techniques which draw out the tortures over many weeks & months allowing partial recovery and then re inflicting the pain (physical/emotional/mental)
Many examples eg burning the outer flesh but not enough to incinerate tissues which carry nerves, then add irritants to the raw nerves then allow some healing to take place - then repeat........
I don't recall Jesus ever undergoing anything longer than a few days ! Wussy in comparison.

ALSO: Jesus never suffered the loss of a child. Never suffered the loss of a wife/husband. In comparison someone like Yekusiel Yehudah Halberstam experiences his wife and 9 children being killed (& numerous other people like this - just a name I know out of many) Then people like Yekusiel Yehudah Halberstam or victor Frankel helped save & heal hundreds of people risking their life and getting tortured by Nazi's. Come on - Jesus got of lightly, Gethsemane is a breeze in the park in comparison.

Quote:
(13-01-2014 07:12 PM)Baruch Wrote:  I personally know people who have sacrificed their careers, health and vast amounts of time & energy to assist others - especially in my own family helping people escape persecution in Iraq risking certain death by horrific torture - which makes Jesus look like a hopeless case of the blues.
Can you do this for others if it is very important in order to save them: can you go through all pains and tortures that ever exist? can you go through all kinds of strongest temptations and resist all of them?

See above comments - Jesus hardly suffered any pain or torture compared to some of the people I quoted above. DURATION is also just as important as INTENSITY. Jesus was not tortured for many years in a concentration camp or gulag.

Conclusion:
Alla knows very little about history.
Alla knows very little about other people than her hero Jesus and the tortures they underwent.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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16-01-2014, 04:57 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
Alla:
Quote:1) that ALL people will be resurrected. It is nobody's fault that we die but Adam's only.

Quite rightly another blogger blamed the centromeres decaying in our chromosomes for death ! As I previously mentioned the plasmodium parasites are one of Gods intelligent designs and quite an efficient killer at a child dying from malaria fever every 45 seconds - that's GOD not ADAM !!!

Quote:We are not responsible for Adam's sin.
Obviously

Quote:So Jesus saved all of us from physical death. It means we all will resurrect one day
Fallacy spotted Laughat
Now that is definitely a non-sequitur fallacy. !!!


Quote:2)Because Jesus saved us from the death we can repent.
Another non-sequitur.
We can repent any time we change & God knows its genuine. God can forgive anyone if they alter their behaviour & habits. NO ONE HAS TO DIE, NO SON HAS TO BE KILLED. Its a ridiculous theology. Even the Muslims were smart enough to spot this was illogical & ridiculous that because someone dies we can repent !
(or worse it is NECESSARY for someone to die for us to be able to repent)


Quote: If we couldn't be resurrected repentance would be meaningless. Repentance brings forgiveness.
...another non sequitur fallacy (kind of getting used to it now)

Quote:If Jesus didn't save us from death we would go to hell forever no matter how we live our lives and who we are.
Physical death = hell.
Physical death is annihilation "game over" NOT HELL.
There is a big difference !
Life can be extremely worthwhile even if it does not last forever.

Quote:When we repent we have forgiveness. When we don't repent we are NOT forgiven and we will be RESPONSIBLE for EVERY UNREPENTED sin we do.
The above makes sense but does not require ANYONE to die for us.


Quote:Atonement works only for those who follow Jesus and repent.
TRUE repentance has 5 steps:
1)accept that I did wrong/sin
2)confess to God to those against whom wrong is done
3)ask for forgiveness God and those against whom wrong is done
4)restitution - if I stole return back, if I falsely testified I have to tell the truth
5)promise to God, myself and those against whom wrong is done that I will never ever do it again.
If I have to go to jail for wrong doing it will be part of RESTITUTION (very important step)

Amazing - I actually agree with the above as would a jew or muslim (or many religious AND philosophical systemss) HOWEVER - NOTHING IN THE ABOVE STEPS REQUIRED JESUS DYING FOR YOU !!! All the above steps can be carried out by a Jew, muslim or any other theist - Jesus is not essential but a distraction.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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16-01-2014, 05:16 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(16-01-2014 04:17 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Paganism is worshiping more than one God.
Paganism is worshiping more than one god not God.

(16-01-2014 04:17 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
Quote:Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD Deut 6:4
שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד
Sure. God Father Elohim, God Son Yahweh and God Holy Ghost can be called one God in purpose. I believe in ONE Godhead or ONE Union of THREE Gods.


(16-01-2014 04:17 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Yahweh is the one God and the holy ghost & jesus are the pagan idols.)
Yahweh = Jesus Christ or God Son. Many Christians think/believe that Yahweh is Heavenly Father.
When God Yahweh Who was the only God FOR Israel was born on earth and lived in Judea He was teaching about His God and His Father.

English is not my native language.
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16-01-2014, 05:23 PM (This post was last modified: 16-01-2014 05:26 PM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(16-01-2014 05:16 PM)Alla Wrote:  Sure. God Father Elohim, God Son Yahweh and God Holy Ghost can be called one God in purpose. I believe in ONE Godhead or ONE Union of THREE Gods.
I can say the same for paganism.. i can say that all pagan Gods are one in purpose.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
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16-01-2014, 06:05 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(16-01-2014 05:23 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(16-01-2014 05:16 PM)Alla Wrote:  Sure. God Father Elohim, God Son Yahweh and God Holy Ghost can be called one God in purpose. I believe in ONE Godhead or ONE Union of THREE Gods.
I can say the same for paganism.. i can say that all pagan Gods are one in purpose.
sure. You can say this.
But what does it have to do with my religion? we don't believe in pagan gods. We believe in God of Israel.
Where does it say in the Scripture that one God = one Person/Being and not UNITY of many Persons/Beings/Gods?
One God = UNITY.
Jesus said to His followers: "Be ONE as father and I are ONE" One what? One God or one Godhead.

English is not my native language.
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16-01-2014, 06:09 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(16-01-2014 06:05 PM)Alla Wrote:  we don't believe in pagan gods.

Technically, you do.

Just as you view all other believers' god's as pagan gods, so do they view your god as a pagan god.
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