WHAT SACRIFICE?
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16-01-2014, 06:09 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(12-01-2014 03:33 PM)truthBtold Wrote:  I have never understood the story of jesus. So god created the universe knowing ahead of time that people would sin, (and jesus was foreknown before the foundation of the world) in (1 PET 1:20). Despite God’s failed experiment in the Garden of Eden, the mass execution of Noah’s flood and the final solution of Christ’s sacrifice, Jesus was predestined to be crucified all along. "He was chosen before the creation of the world,"
So one day, he sends his son, to sacrifce himself for sin. How does torturing a person forgive the sins of others? is that just. If god is all powerful, just forgive people. Why sacrifice himself to himself. All powerful, all knowing, all loving god was left with no other option but to torture and kill someone. How is jesus death a scrifice in the first place? After all he did come back to life and now is in heaven ruling the world. Six hours of agony on the cross is pretty bad, but so is six months of agony from cancer. So god sacrificed himself so we could bypass a rule that god made himself and that god deliberately designed, knowing we will never be able to meet. The reason behind the sacrifice, is mankind’s original sin...makes no sense. Why blame Adam for a moral lapse that he couldn’t even understand? Remember that he hadn’t yet eaten the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, so who could blame him when he made a moral mistake? And how can we inherit original sin from Adam? Why blame us for something we didn’t do? That’s not justice, and the Bible agrees: Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin (Deut. 24:16). pay off my mortgage, the bank doesn’t in addition forgive my debt. There’s no longer a debt to forgive! Why imagine that God must forgive us after he’s already gotten his payment? Must Iron Age customs persist so that we need a human sacrifice?

God created man. But since god is all knowing he knows that man will sin. So he creates Jesus, which is really just himself in human form. Then he sacrifices himself, to himself, to save us all from himself.

riiiiiiighht.

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16-01-2014, 06:56 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(16-01-2014 06:05 PM)Alla Wrote:  But what does it have to do with my religion?
Well it kinda makes your religion polytheistic too.

Only Islam is a true Monotheistic religion because it doesn't believe in a trinity.

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Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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16-01-2014, 06:58 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(16-01-2014 06:56 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(16-01-2014 06:05 PM)Alla Wrote:  But what does it have to do with my religion?
Well it kinda makes your religion polytheistic too.

Only Islam is a true Monotheistic religion because it doesn't believe in a trinity.

Ummm, Judaism? Consider

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16-01-2014, 07:26 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
truthBtold
Quote: Then he sacrifices Himself, to Himself, to save us all from Himself.
Laughat

I just had to quote the above - its brilliant !

I don't have to even comment - Christianity is just so self refuting any additional comment would detract from the beauty of its self proclaimed nonsense.

Well that's a comment already as is this.

Just read the bible as an atheist manifesto.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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16-01-2014, 07:31 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(16-01-2014 06:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  Ummm, Judaism? Consider
yeah that too..

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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16-01-2014, 07:40 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(16-01-2014 06:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-01-2014 06:56 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Well it kinda makes your religion polytheistic too.

Only Islam is a true Monotheistic religion because it doesn't believe in a trinity.

Ummm, Judaism? Consider

Yes Judaism too. Perhaps early Judaism has pagan roots which were then refined into a monotheism. Christianity then just added some local paganism to Judaism to create a trinity paganism. Islam corrected this.
Then Later Jewish & Islamic medieval theologians developed & refined the monotheism and tried to make it more reasonable by incorporating Aristotle & Neo-Platonistic ideas.
Then God becomes more and more abstract and hidden until you get Baruch Spinoza, Leibnitz, Decartes, Lock amongst other thinkers.
Then they realized Deism is probably more likely with Newton.
Then Berkley went nuts.
Then Hume woke up.
Then Kant woke up.
Then Nietzsche demolished the lot.
...God is dead.

Of course we didn't have to go down this long path if people listened to Marcus Aurelius', Epicurus, Lucretius & Democritus

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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16-01-2014, 07:53 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(16-01-2014 07:26 PM)Baruch Wrote:  truthBtold
Quote: Then he sacrifices Himself, to Himself, to save us all from Himself.
Laughat

I just had to quote the above - its brilliant !

I don't have to even comment - Christianity is just so self refuting any additional comment would detract from the beauty of its self proclaimed nonsense.

Well that's a comment already as is this.

Just read the bible as an atheist manifesto.

Thank you. Thank you. I'll be here all night Smile

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16-01-2014, 07:53 PM (This post was last modified: 16-01-2014 07:56 PM by Baruch.)
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
Quote:Such are the heights of wickedness to which men are driven by religion.
Lucretius

Quote:It is folly for a man to pray to the gods for that which he has the power to obtain by himself.
Epicurus

Quote:Everything existing in the universe is the fruit of chance and necessity.
Democritus


Quote:Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point.
Friedrich Nietzsche

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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16-01-2014, 07:57 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(14-01-2014 08:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-01-2014 07:12 PM)Baruch Wrote:  This is exactly my point - God sacrificing his Son is pathetic compared to the sacrifice stories I mentioned in the previous post where people suffered much more brutal tortures, for much longer and without resurrections !
Nobody suffered as Jesus did. Nobody. Atonement means that He suffered all kinds of pains that exists in this world. He felt every pain every and all humans ever felt.
Nobody can agree to take all these pains willfully. He did it willfully.

(13-01-2014 07:12 PM)Baruch Wrote:  I personally know people who have sacrificed their careers, health and vast amounts of time & energy to assist others - especially in my own family helping people escape persecution in Iraq risking certain death by horrific torture - which makes Jesus look like a hopeless case of the blues.
Can you do this for others if it is very important in order to save them: can you go through all pains and tortures that ever exist? can you go through all kinds of strongest temptations and resist all of them?

(13-01-2014 07:12 PM)Baruch Wrote:  OK I would rather not be put on a cross and left to die in extreme agony - but numerous others died on the cross for their beliefs & helping others against Roman persecutions and are unknown.
Cross is only tiny part of the Atonement. The biggest part was in Gethsemane and NOT on the cross. Cross is only the place of His death. But taking all sins and pains was in Gethsemane. It is called INFINITE ATONEMENT.
(13-01-2014 07:12 PM)Baruch Wrote:  If I knew I would save millions of people from eternal Hell I think its worth some torture on the cross - does that make me better or the same as Jesus ?
Again, cross is NOTHING compare to what happened in Gethsemane.


(13-01-2014 07:12 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Then there is the stupidity of dying FOR SOMEONE ELSES SINS ! People are responsible for their own behaviours - If my friend steals something he logically pays the penalty not me in his place !
Atonement doesn't make anybody un-accountable. Atonement means
1) that ALL people will be resurrected. It is nobody's fault that we die but Adam's only. We are not responsible for Adam's sin. So Jesus saved all of us from physical death. It means we all will resurrect one day.
2)Because Jesus saved us from the death we can repent. If we couldn't be resurrected repentance would be meaningless. Repentance brings forgiveness.
If Jesus didn't save us from death we would go to hell forever no matter how we live our lives and who we are.
Physical death = hell.
When we repent we have forgiveness. When we don't repent we are NOT forgiven and we will be RESPONSIBLE for EVERY UNREPENTED sin we do.
Atonement works only for those who follow Jesus and repent.
TRUE repentance has 5 steps:
1)accept that I did wrong/sin
2)confess to God to those against whom wrong is done
3)ask for forgiveness God and those against whom wrong is done
4)restitution - if I stole return back, if I falsely testified I have to tell the truth
5)promise to God, myself and those against whom wrong is done that I will never ever do it again.
If I have to go to jail for wrong doing it will be part of RESTITUTION (very important step)

So how is atonement repentance? (hint....it ain't)
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16-01-2014, 07:59 PM
RE: WHAT SACRIFICE?
(16-01-2014 07:57 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(14-01-2014 08:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  Nobody suffered as Jesus did. Nobody. Atonement means that He suffered all kinds of pains that exists in this world. He felt every pain every and all humans ever felt.
Nobody can agree to take all these pains willfully. He did it willfully.

Can you do this for others if it is very important in order to save them: can you go through all pains and tortures that ever exist? can you go through all kinds of strongest temptations and resist all of them?

Cross is only tiny part of the Atonement. The biggest part was in Gethsemane and NOT on the cross. Cross is only the place of His death. But taking all sins and pains was in Gethsemane. It is called INFINITE ATONEMENT.
Again, cross is NOTHING compare to what happened in Gethsemane.


Atonement doesn't make anybody un-accountable. Atonement means
1) that ALL people will be resurrected. It is nobody's fault that we die but Adam's only. We are not responsible for Adam's sin. So Jesus saved all of us from physical death. It means we all will resurrect one day.
2)Because Jesus saved us from the death we can repent. If we couldn't be resurrected repentance would be meaningless. Repentance brings forgiveness.
If Jesus didn't save us from death we would go to hell forever no matter how we live our lives and who we are.
Physical death = hell.
When we repent we have forgiveness. When we don't repent we are NOT forgiven and we will be RESPONSIBLE for EVERY UNREPENTED sin we do.
Atonement works only for those who follow Jesus and repent.
TRUE repentance has 5 steps:
1)accept that I did wrong/sin
2)confess to God to those against whom wrong is done
3)ask for forgiveness God and those against whom wrong is done
4)restitution - if I stole return back, if I falsely testified I have to tell the truth
5)promise to God, myself and those against whom wrong is done that I will never ever do it again.
If I have to go to jail for wrong doing it will be part of RESTITUTION (very important step)

So how is atonement repentance? (hint....it ain't)

Atonement is not repentance. But without the Atonement repentance will not help to be resurrected.

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
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