WHY is this story even shocking? Deuteronomy 21:18-21
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07-12-2012, 09:57 AM
RE: WHY is this story even shocking? Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Fuck all the religous bullshit. The guy is scum. Christin scum, atheist scum, meh, who fuckin cares. Just give me five minutes alone with the guy. I promise, we won't be discussing religion.

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07-12-2012, 09:59 AM
RE: WHY is this story even shocking? Deuteronomy 21:18-21
(07-12-2012 09:57 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Fuck all the religous bullshit. The guy is scum. Christin scum, atheist scum, meh, who fuckin cares. Just give me five minutes alone with the guy. I promise, we won't be discussing religion.
I'm with you on this one.

I don't understand some people. I could never even think about doing that to my children. It breaks my heart to even think about.

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07-12-2012, 10:06 AM
RE: WHY is this story even shocking? Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Some people gain "power" by being dominant over those who are weaker. The guy is complete garbage.
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07-12-2012, 10:10 AM
RE: WHY is this story even shocking? Deuteronomy 21:18-21
(07-12-2012 09:55 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(07-12-2012 09:40 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  Unless you've got some insight into why the translation legitimately means adult offspring, then you're just spouting bullshit. The term "son" doesn't indicate of any particular age and would include this instance unless specifically noted otherwise by the original translation and context.
Word that's used in the verses here. It literally means "son".

Word for child/children here. It literally means "children" or "child". It serves no reason that the author would say "son" and not "child" if he was talking about children. Also, keeping in the context, the verses call the son a glutton and a drunkard. This is obviously alluding to an older man.
That definition of "son" does not exclude children. The author said son, which includes children and adults, but was not specifically referring to children. You can't exclude children from the application of the verse on the basis that the verse was not solely or specifically referring to children, any more than I could say that politicians are crooks and expect it to be understood that I am excluding Canadian politicians. Children are a subset and are not explicitly excluded from that verse.

Talking about the son being a drunkard and such a) isn't that relevant, as the drinking age wasn't 18/21 back then, so you can't automatically assume that drunkard = adult (it's understood as such today, but was drunkard necessarily an adult thing back then?) and b) it was an example, unless you interpret it as meaning only drunken and gluttonous sons that were stubborn and rebellious have any reason to be punished.

This verse could easily be used by Christians in such a way as in the story without twisting it to say something it didn't, especially not as much as other parts of the Bible are twisted. You've got to add to it or assume certain things in order to argue that it specifically excludes children (it doesn't).

And let us not forget that we're discussing murdering family for disrespectful behavior. If I recall, that's something that the Muslim community has been criticized for ("honor" killings).

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07-12-2012, 10:11 AM
RE: WHY is this story even shocking? Deuteronomy 21:18-21
The only problem I have is that while we all seem to agree that this is obviously wrong, what about mental and psychological torture? How is this really any worse when you stop and think about it? Beating someone because of something the book says = wrong. Mental and verbal abuse from religious parents to their kids = well, they are their kids so they should be able to raise them how they want.

My father-in-law has a pretty messed up collection of kids. And they are only getting worse in most cases and a huge chunk of that is the way they are taught to accept information from those in authority without question.

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07-12-2012, 10:19 AM
RE: WHY is this story even shocking? Deuteronomy 21:18-21
(07-12-2012 10:10 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  That definition of "son" does not exclude children. The author said son, which includes children and adults, but was not specifically referring to children. You can't exclude children from the application of the verse on the basis that the verse was not solely or specifically referring to children, any more than I could say that politicians are crooks and expect it to be understood that I am excluding Canadian politicians. Children are a subset and are not explicitly excluded from that verse.

No, you're right, it doesn't exclude a child. But, the context of the verses say otherwise.

Quote:Talking about the son being a drunkard and such a) isn't that relevant, as the drinking age wasn't 18/21 back then, so you can't automatically assume that drunkard = adult (it's understood as such today, but was drunkard necessarily an adult thing back then?) and b) it was an example, unless you interpret it as meaning only drunken and gluttonous sons that were stubborn and rebellious have any reason to be punished.

There is no assumption. Children didn't drink in Jewish culture. Jewish culture was very law and tradition heavy. Children being drunks just wasn't a reality in Jewish culture.

Quote:This verse could easily be used by Christians in such a way as in the story without twisting it to say something it didn't, especially not as much as other parts of the Bible are twisted. You've got to add to it or assume certain things in order to argue that it specifically excludes children (it doesn't).

And let us not forget that we're discussing murdering family for disrespectful behavior. If I recall, that's something that the Muslim community has been criticized for ("honor" killings).

non-sequitur

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07-12-2012, 10:32 AM
RE: WHY is this story even shocking? Deuteronomy 21:18-21
^
Yes, they were against drunkness. They weren't against drinking alcohol.
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07-12-2012, 10:35 AM
RE: WHY is this story even shocking? Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Don't dare touch a pig though.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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07-12-2012, 10:41 AM
RE: WHY is this story even shocking? Deuteronomy 21:18-21
This story just made me cry -- That poor little boy had a endure such senseless suffering and I'm sorry but you know it wasn't the first time either.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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07-12-2012, 12:04 PM
RE: WHY is this story even shocking? Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Age of adulthood during the age of Deuteronomy would have been 13, I think. Later New Testament passages may have gone by Roman standards for adulthood, which I am unfamiliar with.

Actually, those verses in Deuteronomy require that the rebellious offspring be brought before the city's elders, and (presumably if the elders agree the accused is an all around no-good kid (even adult kid), but their assent isn't specified) then every last man in the city has to participate in the execution. (What's the 13+ male population of Vegas, again?) And it has to be by stoning, not paddles and belts. So no, this Christian nation should be shocked because this ISN'T what the Bible prescribes.

... or, you know, because Christianity in practice, for most people, DOESN'T involve doing exactly what the Bible says. Rolleyes Including, in this case, the commandment not to kill, whatever number that might be.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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