WHY was Jesus crucified?
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30-07-2014, 10:56 AM
WHY was Jesus crucified?
So, why was it necessary for God to have Jesus sacrificed for our sins? Now, I know that this whole notion of Jesus' death being "a sacrifice" is stupid, and I've already covered that, but for sake of this thread, lets assume it counts. Why did it have to happen? By what mechanism does the death of one innocent person atone for the sins of others? I was thinking about this and realized that this was something that God either chose to do, or somehow had to do, and either way, it has weird consequences most Christians don't like to consider.

God had to go through with it:
So, for whatever reason, this bizarre self-sacrifice was vital to God forgiving our sins, and he couldn't simply just... forgive us. It's something to which God was beholden, and something he has no control over. It makes me wonder: from where did this rule come?

Conclusion: God is not omnipotent.


God chose to go through with it:
God could have forgiven us, but he instead opted to have one third of himself be sacrificed to another third of himself for reasons. Now, this seems stupid (and it is), but I guess I can't complain too much. All parties involved were consenting, even if it does look like some really freaky S&M. Still, the whole charade was unnecessary and overly theatric.

Conclusion: God's bloodlust exceeds his compassion, and he goes out of his way to cause suffering when "solving" problems.


Now, I think the second point is closest to the standard Christian stance, although they don't like to think about it much. It is actually very similar to flood apologetics and original sin apologetics, so, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Any part of this that looks creepy at first glance (all of it) will be washed over with a veneer of [mysterious ways] to hide the blemishes.
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30-07-2014, 11:09 AM
RE: WHY was Jesus crucified?
If you can think of a better way for an omnipotent God to change his own rules for his creation besides sacrificing himself to himself, I'm all ears.

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30-07-2014, 11:25 AM
RE: WHY was Jesus crucified?
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -- John 3:16

"Except an omnipotent God could have given all who believeth eternal life with a snap of His fingers rather than with brutal torture, death, and blood sacrifice, so it would be better to say that He gave his only begotten Son over to all that suffering because He didn't feel like snapping his fingers." -- Reltzik
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30-07-2014, 11:32 AM
RE: WHY was Jesus crucified?
Because he attempted to rebel in an imperial roman province.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-07-2014, 11:44 AM
RE: WHY was Jesus crucified?
I heard a podcast by Richard M. Price about this, he said that the concept of God the Father was a Marcion belief, one of the many mystery cults at that time. God the Father had to provide a sacrifice to the Old Testament God to purchase mankind from the Old Testament God.
Found a bit more about it here: Marcion of Sinope

It's quite possible the entire sacrifice myth was a product of Marcion's own beliefs.

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30-07-2014, 11:51 AM
Re: WHY was Jesus crucified?
I always felt Mr deity covered this topic perfectly.

Such a bizarre twist of God making his own rules to appease himself.

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30-07-2014, 11:51 AM
RE: WHY was Jesus crucified?
(30-07-2014 11:32 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Because he attempted to rebel in an imperial roman province.

"I told the priest 'don't count on any second coming
God got his ass kicked the first time he came down here slumming'"

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30-07-2014, 11:57 AM
RE: WHY was Jesus crucified?
(30-07-2014 10:56 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Conclusion: God is not omnipotent.

That is the real answer, as it happens.

Peoples 2000+ years ago would have absolutely no understanding of what modern apologists mean when they say "omnipotent". Gods had rules and limits like any other part of the world.

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30-07-2014, 12:08 PM
RE: WHY was Jesus crucified?
(30-07-2014 10:56 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  God had to go through with it:
So, for whatever reason, this bizarre self-sacrifice was vital to God forgiving our sins, and he couldn't simply just... forgive us. It's something to which God was beholden, and something he has no control over. It makes me wonder: from where did this rule come?

Conclusion: God is not omnipotent.

I think your first option is closer to the Christian position except that it's God's own nature to which he is beholden, not some external, greater power. Because God is perfectly just, he can't just forgive sin; it must be punished. Although, how punishing one person for another's crime is considered "just" is another question... Consider

Fuck it. I became an atheist so I wouldn't have to rationalize this nonsense anymore. Thumbsup

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30-07-2014, 01:13 PM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2014 01:19 PM by kim.)
RE: WHY was Jesus crucified?
(30-07-2014 10:56 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  ---
God had to go through with it:
So, for whatever reason, this bizarre self-sacrifice was vital to God forgiving our sins, and he couldn't simply just... forgive us. It's something to which God was beholden, and something he has no control over.

Forgiving us (humanity) was the only way for him to get us to forgive him. And by him, I mean ourselves.

(30-07-2014 10:56 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  It makes me wonder: from where did this rule come?

Us; our often conflicted expectations of fairness and vengeance.

(30-07-2014 10:56 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Conclusion: God is not omnipotent.

Of course... god only has whatever power you give him.

(30-07-2014 10:56 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  God chose to go through with it:
God could have forgiven us, but he instead opted to have one third of himself be sacrificed to another third of himself for reasons. Now, this seems stupid (and it is), but I guess I can't complain too much. All parties involved were consenting, even if it does look like some really freaky S&M. Still, the whole charade was unnecessary and overly theatric.

It's a book, a work of fiction. "The play is the thing"

(30-07-2014 10:56 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Conclusion: God's bloodlust exceeds his compassion, and he goes out of his way to cause suffering when "solving" problems.

I'll buy that... I'm in no way "defending" the god character when I say, humanity often does the same thing... at least it did when this book was written. But yes, humanity often does still go out of it's way to cause suffering when solving problems. Guess we haven't figured that out enough yet, huh?
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