WHY was Jesus crucified?
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31-07-2014, 12:32 PM
RE: WHY was Jesus crucified?
(31-07-2014 12:26 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Jesus was crucified for blasphemy, but then gawd lied and said it was all part of the plan. It seems breaking his own commandment was a lesser evil to gawd than being weaker than humans.

No, if he was killed for Blasphemy he would have been stoned. He was crucified which the Romans only did to rebels. He tried to start a popular uprising against the Provincial government and instal himself as King and John as high priest. It failed, the romans then did what they do to every would be king or rebel and nailed him to a cross as an example of why you do not fuck with Rome.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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31-07-2014, 12:38 PM
RE: WHY was Jesus crucified?
(31-07-2014 12:32 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(31-07-2014 12:26 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Jesus was crucified for blasphemy, but then gawd lied and said it was all part of the plan. It seems breaking his own commandment was a lesser evil to gawd than being weaker than humans.

No, if he was killed for Blasphemy he would have been stoned. He was crucified which the Romans only did to rebels. He tried to start a popular uprising against the Provincial government and instal himself as King and John as high priest. It failed, the romans then did what they do to every would be king or rebel and nailed him to a cross as an example of why you do not fuck with Rome.
K, but it's not like I was trying to be accurate with a mere tongue-in-cheek comment.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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31-07-2014, 01:30 PM
RE: WHY was Jesus crucified?
He was a violent, bigoted, compulsive liar. Romans hate that.
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31-07-2014, 04:31 PM
RE: WHY was Jesus crucified?
Okay, this was how as a Believer, I would empower myself to get through suffering and not see it as a totally evil thing.

Well either way the world is full of suffering and all of us are going to suffer and die. However, many people of faith who believe that their suffering is a share in the cross that sanctifies us and atones for our sins and the sins of the world , and anticipate the glorious reward and resurrection following this crucifixion, will have more joy, peace, and hope than those who simply believe that suffering is something that should be avoided at all costs and has no meaning.

Could a person ever become an Olympic athlete if they are not willing to suffer?

Many lessons can be learned and wisdom acquired through suffering.

God (as the story goes) willed that his only son would be mocked, betrayed, tortured and brutally murdered. God willed that his apostles would suffer and die for him and he told his followers that they would suffer and die for him. I do not understand why nor does God anywhere declare that we must understand his ways. His ways are not our ways.

Scripture says that a father who loves his child will chastise his child and that a father who loves his child will not spare his child the rod. our suffering here on earth is like a second compared to Eternity and once we are enjoying eternal bliss in heaven, we will not care anymore about our suffering here on earth.

Also a pizza or a glass of water taste far better to a person who is starving and dehydrated in Calcutta than to an American who has three meals a day. Someone who has been sleeping on the streets for years will appreciate an air conditioned room with no insects crawling on you, or wind blowing, or rain, and a comfy bed and blankets. this is an example of how suffering can help us to be far more grateful and enjoy something far more, and appreciate something so much more if we have suffered prior to receiving it.

Perhaps God would permit it for the greater good. Meaning for some reason God's ways are that sin must be atoned for through suffering and sacrifice. That is why in the Old Testament there were sin offerings so that the guilt of one person's sins would be transferred to the suffering of the sacrificial lamb.

Now, why Jesus HAD to be Crucified? I don't think He HAD to be. If God is capable of anything, he doesn't need to become man and be slaughtered. So, it doesn't make sense cept for God wanted the attention and to do something that would get him sympathy and make people write about his "heroic" deeds.
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31-07-2014, 04:53 PM
RE: WHY was Jesus crucified?
(31-07-2014 04:31 PM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  Okay, this was how as a Believer, I would empower myself to get through suffering and not see it as a totally evil thing.

Well either way the world is full of suffering and all of us are going to suffer and die. However, many people of faith who believe that their suffering is a share in the cross that sanctifies us and atones for our sins and the sins of the world , and anticipate the glorious reward and resurrection following this crucifixion, will have more joy, peace, and hope than those who simply believe that suffering is something that should be avoided at all costs and has no meaning.

Could a person ever become an Olympic athlete if they are not willing to suffer?

Many lessons can be learned and wisdom acquired through suffering.

God (as the story goes) willed that his only son would be mocked, betrayed, tortured and brutally murdered. God willed that his apostles would suffer and die for him and he told his followers that they would suffer and die for him. I do not understand why nor does God anywhere declare that we must understand his ways. His ways are not our ways.

Scripture says that a father who loves his child will chastise his child and that a father who loves his child will not spare his child the rod. our suffering here on earth is like a second compared to Eternity and once we are enjoying eternal bliss in heaven, we will not care anymore about our suffering here on earth.

Also a pizza or a glass of water taste far better to a person who is starving and dehydrated in Calcutta than to an American who has three meals a day. Someone who has been sleeping on the streets for years will appreciate an air conditioned room with no insects crawling on you, or wind blowing, or rain, and a comfy bed and blankets. this is an example of how suffering can help us to be far more grateful and enjoy something far more, and appreciate something so much more if we have suffered prior to receiving it.

Perhaps God would permit it for the greater good. Meaning for some reason God's ways are that sin must be atoned for through suffering and sacrifice. That is why in the Old Testament there were sin offerings so that the guilt of one person's sins would be transferred to the suffering of the sacrificial lamb.

Now, why Jesus HAD to be Crucified? I don't think He HAD to be. If God is capable of anything, he doesn't need to become man and be slaughtered. So, it doesn't make sense cept for God wanted the attention and to do something that would get him sympathy and make people write about his "heroic" deeds.

I have posted this before, but here is my paper on this subject;

Eric ######
Professor V###### S########
Christian Spirituality Vision REL 123
April 12 2014

The relationship between incarnation and atonement

To contemplate the relationship between incarnation and atonement, with special emphasis on Anselm’s idea of satisfaction, we must first look at what incarnation and atonement means to those of the Christian faith. Incarnation is continual in that our redemption depends on the reality that the eternal son of God came to us as a man. If he did not come fully down, then we are not fully saved (Dawson 5-6). Since Jesus became what we are, accepting our very humanity and God crossed the gap between human and deity, and he overcame our sin and came to live on our behalf. He chose to leave a faithful life that was beyond our capacity, but required by the Father.

The very obedience of Jesus led him to die on the cross as penalty for human sin. Not only did he die for us, but he gave us new life for salvation, and salvation depends on our continuing union with him. The Incarnation is basically a fundamental theological teaching of Christianity, based on its understanding of the New Testament. The Incarnation represents the Christian belief that Jesus, who is the second part of the triune, God, took on a human body and became both man and deity. This can be seen in the Bible in John 1:14: "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us” (Bible – King James version – John). The Christians worldview is rooted in the incarnation of Jesus Christ, the belief that Jesus is God in human in one person (Mueller 141).

Atonement is a theological theory which describes human being’s reconciliation with God. This atonement is basically the forgiveness of sin through the death and resurrection of Jesus. This voluntary sacrifice by Jesus made possible the reconciliation between man and God. “God so loved the world, and gave his only begotten son” (Bible – King James version – John 3:16). This Scripture verse highlights the source of atonement by the very provision of God’s love. It is the love of God the father that Paul has in view when he speaks of him who “spared not his own son, but delivered him up for us all” (Bible – King James version – Romans 8:32). Surely God could have saved man by other means then allowing his only son to die, since God is all-powerful, other ways of forgiving sin were available to him. Some view the very necessity of his great self-sacrifice magnified his glory and enhanced the precise character of the salvation bestowed (Murray 12). Salvation requires not only the forgiveness of sin but also justification. Sin is the contradiction of God he must react against it with holy wrath demonstration of Christ on the cross is the ultimate demonstration of the love of God. The very nature of the atonement requires that it contains obedience, sacrifice, propitiation, reconciliation and redemption.

Obedience is a compilation of motive, purpose, direction and intention, of which Christ was the epitome of obedience discharge of God’s will in its increasing demands leading up to his inevitable sacrificial death. Sacrifice is the removal of sin liability via the transference of liability itself. Propitiation; to pacify, and Christ’s propitiation to God was to deal with the wrath so that those loved would no longer be the objects of wrath, and God’s love would be eternal. Reconciliation is concerned with our alienation from God, and the inherent need to have that alienation removed. Redemption by Jesus’ blood, “Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” (Bible – King James version – revelations 5:9).

This atonement can be broken down into various theories, one of which is the satisfaction theory of atonement, developed by Anselm of Canterbury (1033 – 1109). Anselm posited that sin unbalanced the order of justice in the universe. Once a sin has been performed, something good must be done in order to restore the balance. For example, a sin is incurrence of debt to God, the source of order, and that debt must be paid through true repentance (Albl 271). The work of Christ is to repair the breach human sin introduced into the relationship between humanity and God. Anselm argued in Cur Deus Homo that this work can be accomplished only by a God-man; one person equally divine and human. This doctrine of Christ is commonly called “Chalcedonian Christology” because it was created by the Council of Chalcedon in 451 CE (Visser 213).

One cannot explain the incarnation by appeal to any supposed obligation on God’s part to respect the devil’s rights over humanity. Since the devil had no such rights, so it appears that God would not have been acting unjustly if he had just delivered human beings the power of the devil by fiat. What reason did God have to redeemed mankind and the way he did, given that he was not under any obligation to do so? Anselm suggests that since we know God’s will is never irrational, we can be confident that God had some reason for doing what he did, even if we do not see or understand what the reason is (Visser 214).

Anselm believed he could prove, by unavoidable logical steps, that Christ was removed from the case, as if there had never existed anything to do with him, is it possible that without him mankind could have been saved (Anselm 261 – 262). A foundation of Christianity is that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins (Bible – King James version –1 Cor 15:3). In this way he fulfilled the old covenant sacrificial system, reconciled us to God, and changed our lives forever. This is the doctrine of the atonement (Mattison 1). At this point the author makes a faith claim, or commonly known as a knowledge claim, by positing “its reality is not in dispute”. I must interject here the whole subject is in dispute, and has been the center of debate for centuries. The author’s mere assertion in a knowledge claim that the atonement “reality” is not in dispute does not make it true. It does however assert that the atonement theory is an essential foundation of Christian religious belief. The author goes on to say, “we know that the atonement works; but how it works is not as clear.” Again, a knowledge claim is made; we have zero proof that the atonement works, at best it is a comforting theory for the faithful to cling to in order to validate their faith to themselves.

“The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many” (Bible –King James version – Matthew 20:28). The statement suggests that Jesus gave his life as an extreme expression of love for mankind. Iranaeus of Lyons argued that Jesus was paid as the ransom to the devil free people’s souls. This view was known as the ransom or classic theory. The ransom theory was the dominant theological theory for centuries until dismantled by Anselm of Canterbury. He pointed out that this theory empowered the devil too much, and he posited that Jesus’s life was ransom paid to God, not the devil. Anselm viewed sin as dishonorable conduct that went against God. Since God cannot ignore this conduct, a debt or “satisfaction” is required. Since mankind is unable to make the requisite level of satisfaction, God became human to do it on our behalf. Thus, Jesus was payment to God, not the devil. But since Jesus was part of the triune god, did god merely appease himself?

The church leaders developed doctrine to reflect Jesus Christ’s fulfilling of God’s will through active obedience, vice his passive obedience through death. Basically, God requires mankind to obey and live a life of perpetual obedience (Mattison 1). This endless cycle of perpetual intellectual and spiritual slavery upon birth, where we continuously strive to bow and scrape in deference to our alleged creator’s self-centered will and ego, is hardly what a thinking person would presume a deity of such universe and life creating power, would be so obsessed with. What kind of immature supreme being would create all of this, create life, destroy life, send part of his own “body” down in the form of a man through immaculate conception, so he can die on our behalf to satisfy God’s ego requirement for sacrifice. I don’t purport to understand the consciousness of this alleged magical creature, but it is hard to conceive such childish, disingenuous manipulation of life for the entertainment of itself. This dramatic, over thought, contrite, anthropocentric theory must be the creation of man’s imagination. How could it be anything else?

In summary, this complex, dramatic Christian theological concept is obviously a fabrication of much thought, and introspective philosophy. Perhaps they could have put all that time and effort into something more constructive. Creating a subservient, subjugative crutch for people with low mental resilience, apparent inability to use reason and logic to comprehend the world around them, and wild imaginations seems unnecessary. In my opinion, religion and faith block the believer’s ability to utilize appropriate epistemological methods to process and gain knowledge. As apparent by the fact that a recent study showed that one fourth of America believed the sun revolved around the earth. This is the perfect example of how religious thought handicaps a person’s ability to learn.




Works Cited:

Mattison, Mark. “The Meaning of the Atonement.” Mark Mattison. 1987. Web. Retrieved from http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/atonement.html

Anselm, Evans, G. R., The Major Works. New York: Oxford University Press, Inc, 1998. Print.

Visser, Sandra and Williams, Thomas, Anselm. New York: Oxford University Press, Inc, 2009. Print.

Murray, John, The Atonement. Evansville: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1976. Print.

Mueller, J.J., Theological Foundations: Concepts and Methods for Understanding the Christian Faith. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2011. Print.

Albl, Martin C. Reason, Faith, and Tradition: Explorations in Catholic Theology. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2009. Print.

The Catholic Study Bible: The New American Bible 2nd ed. Oxford: Oxford University press, Inc., 2011. Print.

Dawson, Gerrit S. Jesus Ascended: The Meaning of Christ’s Continuing Incarnation. New Jersey: P&R publishing, 2004. Print.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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01-08-2014, 12:13 AM
RE: WHY was Jesus crucified?
That is Church doctrine, of course. Then there is the historical question of why a rebel leader would be crucified. Jews had no political leader at that time so when the Romans besieged Jerusalem it is easy to see how someone had to "surrender" as their leader so the rest could live. That explains the anointment by Mary Magdelaine and the betrayal by Judas. Then the victors tell the story. They construct this figure who warned against the consequences of defying Rome, and portray him as a godman, but they feed into the story a morality which is passive and conciliatory towards Rome. It's not so complex. People over-think it.
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01-08-2014, 07:26 AM
RE: WHY was Jesus crucified?
(31-07-2014 04:31 PM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  Okay, this was how as a Believer, I would empower myself to get through suffering and not see it as a totally evil thing.

Well either way the world is full of suffering and all of us are going to suffer and die. However, many people of faith who believe that their suffering is a share in the cross that sanctifies us and atones for our sins and the sins of the world , and anticipate the glorious reward and resurrection following this crucifixion, will have more joy, peace, and hope than those who simply believe that suffering is something that should be avoided at all costs and has no meaning.

Could a person ever become an Olympic athlete if they are not willing to suffer?

Many lessons can be learned and wisdom acquired through suffering.

God (as the story goes) willed that his only son would be mocked, betrayed, tortured and brutally murdered. God willed that his apostles would suffer and die for him and he told his followers that they would suffer and die for him. I do not understand why nor does God anywhere declare that we must understand his ways. His ways are not our ways.

Scripture says that a father who loves his child will chastise his child and that a father who loves his child will not spare his child the rod. our suffering here on earth is like a second compared to Eternity and once we are enjoying eternal bliss in heaven, we will not care anymore about our suffering here on earth.

Also a pizza or a glass of water taste far better to a person who is starving and dehydrated in Calcutta than to an American who has three meals a day. Someone who has been sleeping on the streets for years will appreciate an air conditioned room with no insects crawling on you, or wind blowing, or rain, and a comfy bed and blankets. this is an example of how suffering can help us to be far more grateful and enjoy something far more, and appreciate something so much more if we have suffered prior to receiving it.

Perhaps God would permit it for the greater good. Meaning for some reason God's ways are that sin must be atoned for through suffering and sacrifice. That is why in the Old Testament there were sin offerings so that the guilt of one person's sins would be transferred to the suffering of the sacrificial lamb.

Now, why Jesus HAD to be Crucified? I don't think He HAD to be. If God is capable of anything, he doesn't need to become man and be slaughtered. So, it doesn't make sense cept for God wanted the attention and to do something that would get him sympathy and make people write about his "heroic" deeds.

From what I can tell, this response fits 100% inside of the first of my two options:

(30-07-2014 10:56 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  God had to go through with it:
So, for whatever reason, this bizarre self-sacrifice was vital to God forgiving our sins, and he couldn't simply just... forgive us. It's something to which God was beholden, and something he has no control over. It makes me wonder: from where did this rule come?

Conclusion: God is not omnipotent.

Basically, God is not omnipotent, and he did what he did due to some unspoken limitations. Said limitations tend to be defined by apologists ad hoc, I've noticed.
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01-08-2014, 01:09 PM
RE: WHY was Jesus crucified?
Oh, and what "atonement" actually means is that sense of euphoria you get when someone else takes a bullet and not you.
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