WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
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28-02-2016, 02:15 PM (This post was last modified: 28-02-2016 02:45 PM by carol.)
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(28-02-2016 01:54 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(28-02-2016 01:35 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "At the end of the day, if feminism and humanism are so interchangable, Ill just stick with humanism. You guys can have feminism."

But you're not even trying to understand what feminism is for those of us claiming that title in this thread. You are determined to let the extremists paint your image of the word "feminism" and then it is "too hell with it" because of that.

There is a good reason to abandon the word. The word has been successfully hijacked by extremists which has damaged the reputation of "feminists". I would say I am a feminist by the definition of someone who wants women to have the same rights and opportunities as men, but I don't want the label. The label has negative connotations that do not apply to me.

It's for the same reason why most people don't describe themselves as a redneck, or a negro, or dumb. The terms have negative connotations which people don't want to associate themselves with, although they still may be southern, black, or unable to speak.
I do not agree that the word "feminism" should be abandoned and that the word has been hijacked by extremists. For example, look at the contributing members of the NOW. There are over 500,000 contributing members. I find it so strange that an atheist site has this thread. I would think that anyone who understands the damage that religion can do to people would also realize the damage that is specific to women. Feminism is wrapped up in the idea that many religions teach people to treat women as less than men. I think that the primary reasons for feminism were caused by religion. First, it may be a good idea to understand what ‘feminism’ means to different people. To me, it does not mean to shame/disempower men or man hating but to believe in the inherent equality between individuals as human beings. However women have specific issues that they have to deal with. Religious training is a main one.

For a different perspective of feminism in the USA, check out the mainstream feminist group, NOW, which is the largest US nonprofit org for feminism. The national organization of women has over 500,000 contributing members, both women and men, and they are a good example of modern feminism :

http://now.org/about/who-we-are/
http://now.org/faq/how-many-members-does...ntly-have/

Feminism is around because there are people who believe wholeheartedly that their religious book teaches them that women are to be treated as less than men. I live in a country where the majority of people are Christian. When examining the religions of the world an argument could be made that other religions are much more restrictive and hostile to women. Even though my country has made a lot of headway in equal rights for people, political climates can change quickly. There is no certainty that our freedoms will stand,this is why I support the ERA:
http://www.equalrightsamendment.org/faq.htm

Perhaps the issue is not what the fuck happened to feminism, but what the fuck is happening to popular culture- in which bullshit/ brainless articles are written and posted online about all sorts of issues. Because there are so many available, it is easy to find extremist ezines about anything at all. But I think the question is not that you can find them, but what do they represent in our culture? Are people being influenced by them, or do they simply find them entertainment? How do we dredge the muck posted?

In fairness, I should point out that I am 59, and was a part of both the civil rights movement and the feminist movement back in the day. Popular culture may have changed the interpretation of the word, but I think the word should stand. There has always been a lot of debate within both movements- and a lot of very strong opinions over the years. I have met a few people who consider themselves feminists and I wouid consider their behavior anti-male. I consider that as sexist as anti-female bias- or for that matter any gender bias issues... ( as a shout-out to my trans and othergendered friends) I am against any person being treated unfairly and unkindly.
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28-02-2016, 02:19 PM (This post was last modified: 28-02-2016 02:23 PM by Momsurroundedbyboys.)
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
I find this to be a genuinely frustrating topic.

I do believe in gender equality.

But...I can't argue there's not a gender bias in favor of women. It used to be pendulum swung toward men..now it's in favor of women. But anytime it swings too hard in any direction someone suffers. This is why republicans have their problems and democrats too.

I have seen, within my own circle of friends, feminism has been completely usurped into a weird code for hating men. Men are seen as stupid, worthless and basically grunting fools -- this is why I stopped watching situation comedies. The women are portrayed as capable and smart, saddled with the kids and the adult child who sometimes parents.

I see it all the time on Facebook in the things my "friends" post about their husbands. One routinely kicks her husband out of bed to cook her breakfast and the replies are "you've got him well trained," in which she replies with "I know".

Why should Netflix point me toward "movies with a strong female lead"? If the movie is good, I don't care if the lead is a strong man or woman.

I was talking recently to my older son, who said he's thrilled to be out of high school and into college because he couldn't stand favoritism girls constantly recieved. We talked a little about it and he gave me example after example...From grammar school through high school.

Even recently Hillary Clinton tried to shame female voters into voting for her, essentially saying that we should vote for her because we both have vaginas.


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And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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28-02-2016, 02:27 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(28-02-2016 02:19 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I find this to be a genuinely frustrating topic.

I do believe in gender equality.

But...I can't argue there's not a gender bias in favor of women. It used to be pendulum swung toward men..now it's in favor of women. But anytime it swings too hard in any direction someone suffers. This is why republicans have their problems and democrats too.

I have seen, within my own circle of friends, feminism has been completely usurped into a weird code for hating men. Men are seen as stupid, worthless and basically grunting fools -- this is why I stopped watching situation comedies. The women are portrayed as capable and smart, saddled with the kids and the adult child who sometimes parents.

I see it all the time on Facebook in the things my "friends" post about their husbands. One routinely kicks her husband out of bed to cook her breakfast and the replies are "you've got him well trained," in which she replies with "I know".

Why should Netflix point me toward "movies with a strong female lead"? If the movie is good, I don't care if the lead is a strong man or woman.

I was talking recently to my older son, who said he's thrilled to be out of high school and into college because he couldn't stand favoritism girls constantly recieved. We talked a little about it and he gave me example after example...From grammar school through high school.

Even recently Hillary Clinton tried to shame female voters into voting for her, essentially saying that we should vote for her because we both have vaginas.

Yes. I don't like how its tilting the other way. Empowering women should not equal treating men like lesser.
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28-02-2016, 02:35 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(28-02-2016 02:15 PM)carol Wrote:  
(28-02-2016 01:54 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  There is a good reason to abandon the word. The word has been successfully hijacked by extremists which has damaged the reputation of "feminists". I would say I am a feminist by the definition of someone who wants women to have the same rights and opportunities as men, but I don't want the label. The label has negative connotations that do not apply to me.

It's for the same reason why most people don't describe themselves as a redneck, or a negro, or dumb. The terms have negative connotations which people don't want to associate themselves with, although they still may be southern, black, or unable to speak.
I do not agree that the word "feminism" should be abandoned and that the word has been hijacked by extremists. For example, look at the contributing members of the NOW. There are over 500,000 contributing members. I find it so strange that an atheist site has this thread. I would think that anyone who understands the damage that religion can do to people would also realize the damage that is specific to women. Feminism is wrapped up in the idea that many religions teach people to treat women as less than men. I think that the primary reasons for feminism were caused by religion. First, it may be a good idea to understand what ‘feminism’ means to different people. To me, it does not mean to shame/disempower men or man hating but to believe in the inherent equality between individuals as human beings. However women have specific issues that they have to deal with. Religious training is a main one.

For a different perspective of feminism in the USA, check out the mainstream feminist group, NOW, which is the largest US nonprofit org for feminism. The national organization of women has over 500,000 contributing members, both women and men, and they are a good example of modern feminism :

http://now.org/about/who-we-are/
http://now.org/faq/how-many-members-does...ntly-have/

Feminism is around because there are people who believe wholeheartedly that their religious book teaches them that women are to be treated as less than men. I live in a country where the majority of people are Christian. When examining the religions of the world an argument could be made that other religions are much more restrictive and hostile to women. Even though my country has made a lot of headway in equal rights for people, political climates can change quickly. There is no certainty that our freedoms will stand,this is why I support the ERA:
http://www.equalrightsamendment.org/faq.htm

Perhaps the issue is not what the fuck happened to feminism, but what the fuck is happening to popular culture- in which bullshit/ brainless articles are written and posted online about all sorts of issues. Because there are so many available, it is easy to find extremist ezines about anything at all. But I think the question is not that you can find them, but what do they represent in our culture? Are people being influenced by them, or do they simply find them entertainment? How do we dredge the muck posted?

Excellent! I agree with your post, Carol.

And to that add the extremism runs on all sides. For every "feminism is a toxic cult" cry and offering a post from the man-haters blog where some women, also calling themselves feminists, are claiming that consensual sex is still rape (I know, go figure but they are real and it happened) to the other end of the ists where there's posters shouting down the men's rights movement to equal parenting rights and offering the "we should have the right to rape" crowd. Neither of these should be taken seriously, validated in any way or allowed to confiscate a real and valuable move to equality.

Feminism is not a dirty word and I wear it happily. I work for women to not only have equal rights but have access to the real benefits of equal rights. Just like in the abortion issue, just because the law supports your rights does not mean the availability or access is there. Laws might support wage equality but the reality is nuanced and so is the discrimination.

I am a feminist/humanist. Smile

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28-02-2016, 02:39 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(28-02-2016 02:19 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I find this to be a genuinely frustrating topic.

I do believe in gender equality.

But...I can't argue there's not a gender bias in favor of women. It used to be pendulum swung toward men..now it's in favor of women. But anytime it swings too hard in any direction someone suffers. This is why republicans have their problems and democrats too.

I have seen, within my own circle of friends, feminism has been completely usurped into a weird code for hating men. Men are seen as stupid, worthless and basically grunting fools -- this is why I stopped watching situation comedies. The women are portrayed as capable and smart, saddled with the kids and the adult child who sometimes parents.

I see it all the time on Facebook in the things my "friends" post about their husbands. One routinely kicks her husband out of bed to cook her breakfast and the replies are "you've got him well trained," in which she replies with "I know".

Why should Netflix point me toward "movies with a strong female lead"? If the movie is good, I don't care if the lead is a strong man or woman.

I was talking recently to my older son, who said he's thrilled to be out of high school and into college because he couldn't stand favoritism girls constantly recieved. We talked a little about it and he gave me example after example...From grammar school through high school.

Even recently Hillary Clinton tried to shame female voters into voting for her, essentially saying that we should vote for her because we both have vaginas.

Interesting, both my son and daughter said the same thing... each of the other gender. Maybe it's more a perspective thing.

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28-02-2016, 02:47 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(28-02-2016 02:35 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(28-02-2016 02:15 PM)carol Wrote:  I do not agree that the word "feminism" should be abandoned and that the word has been hijacked by extremists. For example, look at the contributing members of the NOW. There are over 500,000 contributing members. I find it so strange that an atheist site has this thread. I would think that anyone who understands the damage that religion can do to people would also realize the damage that is specific to women. Feminism is wrapped up in the idea that many religions teach people to treat women as less than men. I think that the primary reasons for feminism were caused by religion. First, it may be a good idea to understand what ‘feminism’ means to different people. To me, it does not mean to shame/disempower men or man hating but to believe in the inherent equality between individuals as human beings. However women have specific issues that they have to deal with. Religious training is a main one.

For a different perspective of feminism in the USA, check out the mainstream feminist group, NOW, which is the largest US nonprofit org for feminism. The national organization of women has over 500,000 contributing members, both women and men, and they are a good example of modern feminism :

http://now.org/about/who-we-are/
http://now.org/faq/how-many-members-does...ntly-have/

Feminism is around because there are people who believe wholeheartedly that their religious book teaches them that women are to be treated as less than men. I live in a country where the majority of people are Christian. When examining the religions of the world an argument could be made that other religions are much more restrictive and hostile to women. Even though my country has made a lot of headway in equal rights for people, political climates can change quickly. There is no certainty that our freedoms will stand,this is why I support the ERA:
http://www.equalrightsamendment.org/faq.htm

Perhaps the issue is not what the fuck happened to feminism, but what the fuck is happening to popular culture- in which bullshit/ brainless articles are written and posted online about all sorts of issues. Because there are so many available, it is easy to find extremist ezines about anything at all. But I think the question is not that you can find them, but what do they represent in our culture? Are people being influenced by them, or do they simply find them entertainment? How do we dredge the muck posted?

Excellent! I agree with your post, Carol.

And to that add the extremism runs on all sides. For every "feminism is a toxic cult" cry and offering a post from the man-haters blog where some women, also calling themselves feminists, are claiming that consensual sex is still rape (I know, go figure but they are real and it happened) to the other end of the ists where there's posters shouting down the men's rights movement to equal parenting rights and offering the "we should have the right to rape" crowd. Neither of these should be taken seriously, validated in any way or allowed to confiscate a real and valuable move to equality.

Feminism is not a dirty word and I wear it happily. I work for women to not only have equal rights but have access to the real benefits of equal rights. Just like in the abortion issue, just because the law supports your rights does not mean the availability or access is there. Laws might support wage equality but the reality is nuanced and so is the discrimination.

I am a feminist/humanist. Smile

I need to clarify something. Are you saying wanting equal parenting rights is extremism? I dont think thats what you meant, but it kind of looks like it there.
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28-02-2016, 02:52 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(28-02-2016 02:39 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(28-02-2016 02:19 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I find this to be a genuinely frustrating topic.

I do believe in gender equality.

But...I can't argue there's not a gender bias in favor of women. It used to be pendulum swung toward men..now it's in favor of women. But anytime it swings too hard in any direction someone suffers. This is why republicans have their problems and democrats too.

I have seen, within my own circle of friends, feminism has been completely usurped into a weird code for hating men. Men are seen as stupid, worthless and basically grunting fools -- this is why I stopped watching situation comedies. The women are portrayed as capable and smart, saddled with the kids and the adult child who sometimes parents.

I see it all the time on Facebook in the things my "friends" post about their husbands. One routinely kicks her husband out of bed to cook her breakfast and the replies are "you've got him well trained," in which she replies with "I know".

Why should Netflix point me toward "movies with a strong female lead"? If the movie is good, I don't care if the lead is a strong man or woman.

I was talking recently to my older son, who said he's thrilled to be out of high school and into college because he couldn't stand favoritism girls constantly recieved. We talked a little about it and he gave me example after example...From grammar school through high school.

Even recently Hillary Clinton tried to shame female voters into voting for her, essentially saying that we should vote for her because we both have vaginas.

Interesting, both my son and daughter said the same thing... each of the other gender. Maybe it's more a perspective thing.

I don't know, I don't have daughters, but my friends do, a couple are the same age as my son (22) and attended the same schools. Maybe I'll ask them if they ever felt slighted because of their gender.

If this thread is still active in week, I'll return and update it.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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28-02-2016, 03:16 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(28-02-2016 02:47 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  
(28-02-2016 02:35 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  Excellent! I agree with your post, Carol.

And to that add the extremism runs on all sides. For every "feminism is a toxic cult" cry and offering a post from the man-haters blog where some women, also calling themselves feminists, are claiming that consensual sex is still rape (I know, go figure but they are real and it happened) to the other end of the ists where there's posters shouting down the men's rights movement to equal parenting rights and offering the "we should have the right to rape" crowd. Neither of these should be taken seriously, validated in any way or allowed to confiscate a real and valuable move to equality.

Feminism is not a dirty word and I wear it happily. I work for women to not only have equal rights but have access to the real benefits of equal rights. Just like in the abortion issue, just because the law supports your rights does not mean the availability or access is there. Laws might support wage equality but the reality is nuanced and so is the discrimination.

I am a feminist/humanist. Smile

I need to clarify something. Are you saying wanting equal parenting rights is extremism? I dont think thats what you meant, but it kind of looks like it there.

No, I said the use of the extremists to say what a group is or isn't is not beneficial. Then I used the extremist feminist, who think all sex is rape even when consensual, or, the extremists MRA types that support that rape should be legal, as an example of both extremes and neither should be taken seriously or validated in any way.

If you re-read the entire sentence you can see I put the men working for equal parenting rights in the "valid" context with women working for equal rights. There are extremists on both sides and they should not be allowed to hijack the meaning of a valid position.

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28-02-2016, 03:18 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(28-02-2016 03:16 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(28-02-2016 02:47 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  I need to clarify something. Are you saying wanting equal parenting rights is extremism? I dont think thats what you meant, but it kind of looks like it there.

No, I said the use of the extremists to say what a group is or isn't is not beneficial. Then I used the extremist feminist, who think all sex is rape even when consensual, or, the extremists MRA types that support that rape should be legal, as an example of both extremes and neither should be taken seriously or validated in any way.

If you re-read the entire sentence you can see I put the men working for equal parenting rights in the "valid" context with women working for equal rights. There are extremists on both sides and they should not be allowed to hijack the meaning of a valid position.

No worries then. was just confused
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28-02-2016, 03:34 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(28-02-2016 03:16 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(28-02-2016 02:47 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  I need to clarify something. Are you saying wanting equal parenting rights is extremism? I dont think thats what you meant, but it kind of looks like it there.

No, I said the use of the extremists to say what a group is or isn't is not beneficial. Then I used the extremist feminist, who think all sex is rape even when consensual, or, the extremists MRA types that support that rape should be legal, as an example of both extremes and neither should be taken seriously or validated in any way.

If you re-read the entire sentence you can see I put the men working for equal parenting rights in the "valid" context with women working for equal rights. There are extremists on both sides and they should not be allowed to hijack the meaning of a valid position.

We call Muslim extremists 'Muslim extremists' so let's just call these women 'feminist extremists'.

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