WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
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19-03-2016, 05:23 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(19-03-2016 05:18 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  #BrightLivesMatter.



I enjoyed it a little. What does this have to do with feminism?

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19-03-2016, 05:46 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(19-03-2016 05:23 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(19-03-2016 05:18 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  #BrightLivesMatter.



I enjoyed it a little. What does this have to do with feminism?




#sigh
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19-03-2016, 10:32 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(19-03-2016 04:27 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Well the point should be to understand the other side of the argument. Part of a meaningful dialogue. Creationist tend to dismiss videos making different points for example. Let me share a story. One point I had a debate with my dad and talked to him about evolution. He made a claim that darwin was racist. So in hearing that I found a source showing how he wasn't racist. What did he do? Say it was a waste of time. Now I am not saying you should immediately watch the video, but you should watch if you want to understand the other side of the argument.
It's also a troll tactic. Post a video and then claim that no one can comment unless they've watched the video and that it somehow reveals that they're "biased". Why is it so hard to spell out a point and *then* post the video as evidence?

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(19-03-2016 02:40 PM)morondog Wrote:  I repeat. How does that video of whats-her-face being crazy support your point,whatever your point is?

I think dark's point is that something in feminism today allows this behavior to spawn. She is not the worst of it. Here is another example:
A contentious point. If I post a video of Stalin as an example of "behaviour allowed to spawn by atheism" then what will you say?

Quote:



Keep in mind these people follow the same gender studies or feminist theory every other feminist has. And the thing is that feminist dismissing crazy feminist is just like christians denying crazy christians. This no true scotts man fallacy. It doesn't make feminism look good, it makes it look worst. Same goes for christians. It shows that something is inherently wrong with the ideology. The difference being feminist can change and still be correct. Saying women deserve equal rights as men will always be correct. However, they way people define equal as something else, in sort of a we are all equal, but some are more equal than others.

Oh my God we must cancel Gender studies classes Rolleyes Fuck sakes.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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20-03-2016, 03:58 AM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
I think dark's point is that something in feminism today allows this behavior to spawn. She is not the worst of it. Here is another example:
[/quote]
A contentious point. If I post a video of Stalin as an example of "behaviour allowed to spawn by atheism" then what will you say?

[quote]

I won't speak for anyone I'll just point out that atheism is not an ideology..
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20-03-2016, 07:13 AM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(19-03-2016 10:32 PM)morondog Wrote:  It's also a troll tactic. Post a video and then claim that no one can comment unless they've watched the video and that it somehow reveals that they're "biased". Why is it so hard to spell out a point and *then* post the video as evidence?

The video is supposed to show a point. Keep in mind the video does show where it got the source from. You can also google the claim. I do it, to make sure that they are correct. And also you can't really comment on a video you haven't watched anyway. How can you understand the point the video made without watching it? That would be no different from me saying that I understand the creationist view points without looking into anything they say. Doesn't really work man.


(19-03-2016 10:32 PM)morondog Wrote:  A contentious point. If I post a video of Stalin as an example of "behaviour allowed to spawn by atheism" then what will you say?

I would say you were wrong. Atheism was not the reason stalin acted the way he did, it was communism and greed. As drunkin druid said, atheism is not an ideology, just a lack of belief. Keep in mind you can have non-atheist communist. Feminism today however is the reason for the behavior. Keep in mind that many feminist are also atheist. My point, a video showing stalin's atheism was the reason for his behavior is wrong because communism was the reason, a video showing feminist doing crazy shit has a point because feminism is the reason.


(19-03-2016 10:32 PM)morondog Wrote:  Oh my God we must cancel Gender studies classes Rolleyes Fuck sakes.

We should. Gender studies is the most pointless degree.

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20-03-2016, 07:52 AM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
Not going to bother to quote and respond to everything in which my name was mentioned, but...

There was much more to the vid than the Journalism Professor. It was an example of what these women (and men) do, and the results they are having - not what they hypothetically could have, but they are having, and some of the data they are basing their rabid and violent behavior on. I was content to leave the violence and truly criminal behavior out, but I was challenged by moron because my previous example wasn't worthy of prison time and therefore not important enough, or some such bullshit. Not sure.

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20-03-2016, 08:52 AM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
@Metazoa Zeke

I will preach a little bit for my parish (I did teach for a session in a gender study class) since it would be pertinent, but gender study classes, with other specialty like other marginal group study, are actually at the front of most of the most pertinent and new development in the field of sociology and history. Their multidisciplinary approach and methodology has been adopted by most modern chair of history and sociology since we started to study more in depth ancient and contemporary civilisations. In fact without gender study and other similar branch, historical study would lose a good 30 years of development and breakthrough. The role of women, the influence of minorities and classism would be completely occulted and vastly unsearched by historians. A massive facet of our common history and social structure would be occulted. Not to mention that the development of such fields was a necessary consequences of social changes and fight against inequality. How do you fight against poverty without studying the history of the poor, their impact, place and structural cause in society? The same thing goes for sexism or racism. These fields are the most dynamic and productive in social science. It’s where the most interesting and rich discovery can be made. This doesn't make classical study (the history and influence of the Greek and Roman civilisations) less important, but this field has been established for about 500 years and has already yielded its most important discoveries yet. Thinking that gender study (or its other spawns like racial study) are useless and should be forgotten is the equivalent to history and sociology as to say that genetics is a dead end in biology and medicine. I found this perception alarmingly uninformed of what modern history and sociology is trying to achieve or stand for. I would urge you to reconsider your opinion on it.

PS: As for students rioting while spouting concept freshly learned in their classes, this is a tradition shared by all faculties. Student in economy are fond of talking shouting the latest economical doctrine they have studied as a potential source of our greatest problems, same thing for philosophy students or sociology students. Universities are a rich territory for revolutionary dreamers who think and want to solve the world problems. It says much more about our youth, their dreams, fears and desire than what they are studying and its background. Its also good to note that students (especially during a riot or a strike) can be very bad at representing their knowledge of a specific field.

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20-03-2016, 11:11 AM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(20-03-2016 08:52 AM)epronovost Wrote:  @Metazoa Zeke

I will preach a little bit for my parish (I did teach for a session in a gender study class) since it would be pertinent, but gender study classes, with other specialty like other marginal group study, are actually at the front of most of the most pertinent and new development in the field of sociology and history.

Not really. The history of women can be studied without gender studies. Gender history. However unlike gender studies, gender history goes over both men and women's history. However going over both would just be history. So in short gender studies is not needed for history at all, as they study of women in history. What it does do, is that gender studies uses history of women in order to see what women in history are like. In fact a job in history is not obtainable with just a gender studies degree.

https://wgs.tcnj.edu/for-students/career...wgs-major/

And most, if not all, of the majors listed don't need one in the first place.

(20-03-2016 08:52 AM)epronovost Wrote:  Their multidisciplinary approach and methodology has been adopted by most modern chair of history and sociology since we started to study more in depth ancient and contemporary civilisations.

Well there is a problem. In the modern chair of history, gender studies has done nothing. As said before, you can't get a job as a historian with a gender studies degree. Now you can have a historian who thinks gender studies is important, but they hardly make up the majority. There is also a problem with in depth. I think the right term is bias. Gender studies is usually a course which teaches many feminist falsehoods, like the gender pay gap and the 1in5 rape statistic and so on. Now some might not teach this statistics, but even granting only a few do, teaching false hoods on a campus is a problem.

Now this video is on womans studies(almost the same as gender studies), but it should give an idea on how gender studies works:





(20-03-2016 08:52 AM)epronovost Wrote:  In fact without gender study and other similar branch, historical study would lose a good 30 years of development and breakthrough. The role of women, the influence of minorities and classism would be completely occulted and vastly unsearched by historians.

This is untrue, seeing as there is a degree in women's and gender history

http://history.unc.edu/what-we-study/wom...r-history/

The history of minorities is studied as well. The fact that you brought up minorities I will use later.

As I said gender studies does not contribute to research in history, but instead teaches history of women that was already discovered. In fact the history of women has been studied before gender studies were even invited.

(20-03-2016 08:52 AM)epronovost Wrote:  A massive facet of our common history and social structure would be occulted. Not to mention that the development of such fields was a necessary consequences of social changes and fight against inequality.

Was it? Now I won't argue that it was made in the result of social changes or even the fight against inequality, but the point I will argue is that is it necessary. The answer is no. Gender studies again, is not gender history. Gender studies is trying to make an ideology seem academic. Keep in mind that in the 70's when women finally achieved equal pay, the S.C.U.M menefesto was also written. I bring this up to show that maybe gender studies was not just a result of inequality, but maybe also to push agendas that have more to do with their(the people who started this) own interest. Even if I granted it was needed back then, it is not needed now. In the U.S, Canada, and Most(if not all) of europe don't need gender studies, as women have achieved equality. One can complain about things like women not being CEOs, but then my question is why people don't complain about female coal miners and female garbage collectors? There is not one benefit in law that men have that women don't, but many women have and men don't.

(20-03-2016 08:52 AM)epronovost Wrote:  How do you fight against poverty without studying the history of the poor, their impact, place and structural cause in society? The same thing goes for sexism or racism. These fields are the most dynamic and productive in social science. It’s where the most interesting and rich discovery can be made.

Well as said before there are histories explaining women and minorities. Black history, Asian history, so on and so forth, are all taught and studied by those who don't even match the ethnicity. I think my point is that you are conflating things like womans history with gender studies, one in which is useful and does contribute to history, while the other is pretty much if tumblr was given a college course.

(20-03-2016 08:52 AM)epronovost Wrote:  Thinking that gender study (or its other spawns like racial study) are useless and should be forgotten is the equivalent to history and sociology as to say that genetics is a dead end in biology and medicine. I found this perception alarmingly uninformed of what modern history and sociology is trying to achieve or stand for. I would urge you to reconsider your opinion on it.

Your example of why gender studies is important to history is a false equivalence. Why? Because gender studies is not a part of history, it teaches history. Gender history is important to history, black history is important to history, african history is important to history, but gender studies is not. Genetics is important to biology because it is ingrained in it. Gender studies is not ingrained in history, at all. I looked. I am not uninformed about gender studies, which is why it is useless.


(20-03-2016 08:52 AM)epronovost Wrote:  PS: As for students rioting while spouting concept freshly learned in their classes, this is a tradition shared by all faculties. Student in economy are fond of talking shouting the latest economical doctrine they have studied as a potential source of our greatest problems, same thing for philosophy students or sociology students. Universities are a rich territory for revolutionary dreamers who think and want to solve the world problems. It says much more about our youth, their dreams, fears and desire than what they are studying and its background. Its also good to note that students (especially during a riot or a strike) can be very bad at representing their knowledge of a specific field.

That doesn't excuse blocking some people to have freedom of assemble because they want to talk about issues men face here in the west.

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20-03-2016, 12:23 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
@Metazoa Zeke

I think you mist the important part. The importance of Gender study to history and sociology isn't linked to historical or sociological study of women in various societies per se, but their interdisciplinary approach and methodologie in social science to tackle more complex issues linked to power, tradition, culture and equality. which was championned in no small part by gender study. This is where historians and sociologists produce the most original work in our day and age. We make interdisciplinary research to study, explain and explore large scale and enduring social phenomenon like discrimination, crime, sexuality and imperialism for exemple. That's why gender study are so important, because they championned this approach in social science and keep puching in that direction.

Gender history is an integral part of any cursus of gender study. In fact, like in the link you just presented, the same term can be used to describe very similar if not identical cursus. What your link called gender history was pretty much the same cursus and resume than in a gender study faculty in Montreal (McGill university one) where I thought a class for a semester. The two names can be confused depending on the college/university and its specialty (some prefer the term gender history over gender study because the cursus is mostly based on history class and is linked to their history chair and not their litterature chair for exemple). I have yet to see a cursus in gender study that isn't made of various classes of gender history, litterature and sociology. In resume, they aren't mutally exclusive domain, in fact they are almost identical twins. Gender history classes allowed the creation of gender studies as the result of the research in that field became so important that it allowed the creation of a specialised domain. The goal of gender study is to analyse and critique society, cultures and history under the spectrum of sexism, women and «queer» (AKA transexual, homosexual, etc.). As such it's an extremely rich domain since sexism, homophobia and transphobia are still vastly unresearched and have a massive influence in our society.

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20-03-2016, 01:26 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(20-03-2016 12:23 PM)epronovost Wrote:  I think you mist the important part. The importance of Gender study to history and sociology isn't linked to historical or sociological study of women in various societies per se, but their interdisciplinary approach and methodologie in social science to tackle more complex issues linked to power, tradition, culture and equality. which was championned in no small part by gender study.

I looked for how gender studies contributed to history at all and it turned up nothing.
The approach of gender history still out dates the existence of gender studies, meaning that even before gender studies, women's history was researched. Maybe if you said feminism had something to do with gender history, you would be right, because that is what really drove it.

(20-03-2016 12:23 PM)epronovost Wrote:  This is where historians and sociologists produce the most original work in our day and age. We make interdisciplinary research to study, explain and explore large scale and enduring social phenomenon like discrimination, crime, sexuality and imperialism for exemple. That's why gender study are so important, because they championned this approach in social science and keep puching in that direction.

No gender studies doesn't. As shown in the video, the class starts with a conclusion, and then tries to look for evidence(sound familiar?) Many of things like discrimination,crime, and sexuality taught in gender studies starts with the conclusion. As said before they teach things like the gender pay gap and the campus 1in5 rape statistic. These are both false. So pushing social science in this direction will in turn make social science useless as well(if not useless the extremely distrusted, not like that isn't happening already)

(20-03-2016 12:23 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Gender history is an integral part of any cursus of gender study.

I have mentioned this. I have said that gender studies does teach gender history.

(20-03-2016 12:23 PM)epronovost Wrote:  In fact, like in the link you just presented, the same term can be used to describe very similar if not identical cursus. What your link called gender history was pretty much the same cursus and resume than in a gender study faculty in Montreal (McGill university one) where I thought a class for a semester.

Let me grant that they are the same in this situation, does not mean they are connected. Take for instance the evolution of cetaceans and mosasaurs. Both are lobe-finned fish in the taxonomic groups tetrapodomorphia, tetrapodia, and are even amniotes. They even share the same pattern of evolution, both going from small land dwelling animals to larger aquatic ones over time. However these similarities don't connect them as one in the same. Both are still very different, as one is a reptile and one is a mammal. Similarities does not mean things are one in the same.

(20-03-2016 12:23 PM)epronovost Wrote:  The two names can be confused depending on the college/university and its specialty (some prefer the term gender history over gender study because the cursus is mostly based on history class and is linked to their history chair and not their litterature chair for exemple). I have yet to see a cursus in gender study that isn't made of various classes of gender history, litterature and sociology. In resume, they aren't mutally exclusive domain, in fact they are almost identical twins.

Well as I have stated before, gender studies does teach gender history, I never said it didn't. Now if you want to change gender studies into gender history, then fine, goes to show that we don't need it. And as shown before, gender studies can not get you a job dealing with history, not even gender history.

(20-03-2016 12:23 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Gender history classes allowed the creation of gender studies as the result of the research in that field became so important that it allowed the creation of a specialised domain.


To use another analogy, lets take evolution. Now let me grant you that gender history did lead to gender studies. So what? Gender studies needed gender history to exist, but gender history didn't need gender studies to exist. Like evolution, tetrapods needed lobe-finned fish to exist in order to have evolved, while lobe-finned fish didn't need tetrapods. Hell, even if tetrapods didn't evolve, lobe-finned fish would still exist. My point, just because on thing came from something, doesn't mean they need it.

(20-03-2016 12:23 PM)epronovost Wrote:  The goal of gender study is to analyse and critique society, cultures and history under the spectrum of sexism, women and «queer» (AKA transexual, homosexual, etc.). As such it's an extremely rich domain since sexism, homophobia and transphobia are still vastly unresearched and have a massive influence in our society.

Well the problem is what transphobia, sexism, and homophobia is. Take my mom for example, she thinks it is annoying to have gay people mention how they are gay all the time. To many on the left she would be homophobic. However she doesn't hate homosexuals, does not appose gay marriage, and even says there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. Sexism as shown in gender studies includes disagreeing with them. So the problem isn't the claim it is against it, but the agenda that comes with saying that, thus the college kids trying to block people from a speaking event.

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