WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
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21-03-2016, 04:02 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
Ah, the apparent never ending war between Anita Sarkeesian and Phil Mason aka Thunderf00t.

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21-03-2016, 04:56 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(21-03-2016 04:02 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Ah, the apparent never ending war between Anita Sarkeesian and Phil Mason aka Thunderf00t.

I am rooting for Mutual Annihilation.

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21-03-2016, 05:35 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(21-03-2016 12:04 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Like what exactly? Females not going towards stem? This is incorrect because women do dominate fields like biology.





And are you suggesting when we only have true freedom? Again we have freedom of choice here.

Jesus Zeke, did you completely ignore the studies I showed you in this thread like, almost a month ago? Didn't you read about how biases affect the way we make choices?

Also, that video is full of bullshit. Yeah, sure, women dominate fields like biology and
veterinary medicine (which only serves to prove my point that women are made to think they can only do certain things, biology and veterinary medicine being considered "appropriate" for women anyway) but, newsflash, law has nothing to do with STEM fields and agriculture is not entirely engineering.

Her whole argument about male brains working differently than female ones also inadvertently refutes her argument about choice. If male brains work differently so men are "better at math", why do females dominate fields like biology?

Both problems are solved by this simple explanation: men and women are (not deliberately) raised to believe they are meant to do certain things and not others. Yes, our brains are different, but the number of women in STEM fields has only grown the last few decades. How is that explained then?

(21-03-2016 12:04 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  All females I know can choose whether or not to be a stay at home mom or a scientist.

Well, now, that's an argument. 99,9% of men I've met are assholes, so I guess that means that 99,9% of all men are assholes. Yeah.

You're completely ignoring the role of psychology and how we are indirectly affected by things we are not even aware of. You can use the same argument to say that abused women consciously choose to stay with their abusive partner. It's all a matter of choice and freedom after all, right?

I don't have much to say about the rest of your conversations in here but please, stop using the same old arguments which I have shown to be wrong (but you simply ignored the studies and refused to make further comments on it).

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21-03-2016, 06:10 PM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2016 07:20 PM by epronovost.)
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(21-03-2016 03:38 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(21-03-2016 03:22 PM)epronovost Wrote:  If factors either biological or sociological favor a choice over another, I can't say that this was purely MY CHOICE.

How is your biological makeup - that is to say, a rather substantial part of you - being responsible for the choices you make in any way impinging upon your freedom of choice?


In my opinion, biological makeup can influence choices of career or ocupation and help foster a sexist society, instinctive urges and desires can affect our perception and situation. It can push us toward choices that due to the constrain of modern society are sometime in opposition or difficult conciliate for exemple parenting and career. It creates a situation where biological urges and desire are opposing social and psychological urges and desire. In my opinion, biological makeup alone isn't that influencial, but its when it synergise with sociological construct and cultural markers that it turns into a «subversive» force of influence that is mostly unconscious.

PS: As for the toy thing, those study do have a flaw in presenting a toy for girl and for boys that are radically different in fonction. Girls do have toys with wheels that you drive around (barbie cars, poney on weels, baby carrier, etc.) and boys also have dolls and plushies (GI Joe, action figurine, dinosaurs, etc.). In my opinion this can throw off their conclusion a bit since monkeys were interested in fonction over style.

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21-03-2016, 06:20 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(21-03-2016 01:25 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(21-03-2016 01:06 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I'm sorry, what?!

I have two boys, now aged 22 and 16 and I never raised them to think of toys as boys or girls toys, which was actually a day care trick. Yet, as young as two, both boys gravitated to Tonka trucks, hot wheels, trains (omg trains were huge in our house) and other things...one might clearly say were boys toys. They also loved Tinker Toys and blocks...my older son slept in a toy tent for a year too. He pretended to be naturalist. It was adorable.

Also, because the kids rarely asked for things -- we would seriously take them to toys r us and offer to buy them ANYTHING in the whole store (a scary proposition). I always worried a little...but really they'd pick out one or two small things that interested them -- usually something I'd never think to buy, like a model car or wood burning kit. But we'd let them go down any aisle they wanted (we never directed their choices) and they would breeze by pink aisles really quickly. They shiny glittery boxes didn't interest them at all.

We also didn't worry about age limits either. When my then 4 year old wanted a wood burning kit, we got it even though it said the child should be older. He did use it with my husband's supervision.

Now, it also should be noted that especially with my oldest, he wasn't allowed to watch television at all until he was 5 or 6. My younger child did watch some public television when he was small. So I can't say they influenced by television on a subconscious level either.

Going a little further, my older son's best friend when he was 3 or 4 was a neighbor girl -- when they'd play together she'd play with her dolls and he'd play with his stuff and somehow the dolls always needed to be rescued from a monster.

Also when I did work in a day care, I'd often the boys using a doll as a hammer or another tool. In college were did an informal study of kids playing. We had 10 boys in a room filled with mostly girl toys -- they played with them, but who knew Barbie could become a pretend gun.

The girls were brought into a similar situation, where mostly boy's toys were present and after looking around they just ignored them -- either playing with the few girl toys or playing something else -- ignoring all the toys. They organized themselves and pretended to shop. It's worth mentioning we didn't interfere and were only there to observe behaviors. Girls in general were much more quick to voice complaints, while boys seemed to better at just making due with whatever was there.

We also did noise studies. That was particularly fascinating. We learned that when girls and boys were together boys were louder. But when the boys were separated their noise level remained the same in decibels. But the girls holy crap...their noise level rose to 4x that of boys. I had a headache after that test.

The only place where it seemed the boys and girls both played was with the kitchen stuff. Both seemed to enjoy pretend cooking.

A final note, as a little girl I wanted a GI joe...desperately. Because Barbie truly needed a better boyfriend than ken. Laugh out load

This has actually been studied before. Boys and girls are actually genetically predisposed towards favoring certain toys and activities over others.

This isn't to say that gender stereotypes are universally applicable. It's perfectly acceptable for girls to want to play with trucks rather than dolls, and children should be encouraged to play with whatever they like. But society is definitively not to blame for the genders' tendencies towards different activities - at least, not when it comes to children. There is an argument to be made regarding societal norms being an issue for women attempting to enter STEM fields, but it's only tangentially related to the point in hand.

We always told our kids it's only a boys toy if boys are playing with it. Smile

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21-03-2016, 06:52 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(21-03-2016 06:10 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(21-03-2016 03:38 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  How is your biological makeup - that is to say, a rather substantial part of you - being responsible for the choices you make in any way impinging upon your freedom of choice?


In my opinion, biological makeup can influence choices of career or ocupation and help foster a sexist society, instinctive urges and desires can affect our perception and situation. It can push us toward choices that due to the constrain of modern society are sometime in opposition or difficult conciliate for exemple parenting and career. It creates a situation where biological urges and desire are opposing social and psychological urges and desire. In my opinion, biological makeup alone isn't that influencial, but its when it synergise with sociological construct and cultural markers that it turns into a «subversive» force of influence that is mostly unconscious.

This does not answer my question.

Your biological makeup is part of you. You are essentially saying that who you are is getting in the way of your own ability to make choices freely. What are you proposing as an alternative? That you are able to make choices without being affected by who you are? That you can, in fact, be you, minus you?

I'm honestly asking. This is not an attack. I simply do not even begin to understand what it is that you are proposing.

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21-03-2016, 06:54 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(21-03-2016 06:20 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  We always told our kids it's only a boys toy if boys are playing with it. Smile

Thumbsup

Personally, I always tell all kids, regardless of gender, "hands off, you little shit, that's mine, now get outta here".

But that's just me.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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21-03-2016, 07:04 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(21-03-2016 06:54 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(21-03-2016 06:20 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  We always told our kids it's only a boys toy if boys are playing with it. Smile

Thumbsup

Personally, I always tell all kids, regardless of gender, "hands off, you little shit, that's mine, now get outta here".

But that's just me.

I've said that plenty of times too. Smile

I'm a bitch that way. Dodgy


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21-03-2016, 07:51 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(21-03-2016 06:52 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(21-03-2016 06:10 PM)epronovost Wrote:  In my opinion, biological makeup can influence choices of career or ocupation and help foster a sexist society, instinctive urges and desires can affect our perception and situation. It can push us toward choices that due to the constrain of modern society are sometime in opposition or difficult conciliate for exemple parenting and career. It creates a situation where biological urges and desire are opposing social and psychological urges and desire. In my opinion, biological makeup alone isn't that influencial, but its when it synergise with sociological construct and cultural markers that it turns into a «subversive» force of influence that is mostly unconscious.

This does not answer my question.

Your biological makeup is part of you. You are essentially saying that who you are is getting in the way of your own ability to make choices freely. What are you proposing as an alternative? That you are able to make choices without being affected by who you are? That you can, in fact, be you, minus you?

I'm honestly asking. This is not an attack. I simply do not even begin to understand what it is that you are proposing.

Yes, its basically that. You are getting in your way. That's one of the reason humans can be a psychological messTongue. To me, a free choice is choice on which there is no bias for or against. Your own instinct can produce bias. To be you minus you (so to speak) you need to expose and critique those biological urges so that they stop be being an unconcious bias and become exposed. You need to raise your awarness to that type «weakness»/«strength» so to speak instead of letting it operate under your radar. Analysing your actions and behavior in such a way isn't easy, «natural» or common, but it allows to rationnalise your decision and behavior. It's a correcting mechanism. Is it more clear or am I still incapable to express myself clearly (bear with me please its harder for me in english than french).

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21-03-2016, 08:14 PM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2016 08:19 PM by Unbeliever.)
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(21-03-2016 07:51 PM)epronovost Wrote:  To me, a free choice is choice on which there is no bias for or against.

Then the only free choice, if I understand you, is a coin flip.

If my biases - that is to say, who I am and what I value - do not influence my decision-making, I am not actually making any decisions. I am simply a walking random number generator.

You will pardon me if I do not consider this a particularly compelling point of view.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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