WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
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21-03-2016, 08:40 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(21-03-2016 08:14 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(21-03-2016 07:51 PM)epronovost Wrote:  To me, a free choice is choice on which there is no bias for or against.

Then the only free choice, if I understand you, is a coin flip.

If my biases - that is to say, who I am and what I value - do not influence my decision-making, I am not actually making any decisions. I am simply a walking random number generator.

You will pardon me if I do not consider this a particularly compelling point of view.

I don't think you understood correctly (or I didn't). If you don't know who you are or what you value and why you do so (the basis and foundation of all your beliefs), aren't actively analysing/reflecting on your point of view and all the potential basis of your beliefs before acting on a major decison like what you will do of your life (job, main hobby, passion) than I believe you are letting uncriticised, unconscous bias influence you in a unreasonnable manner. If you don't know who you are or what you value and why you do so (the basis and foundation of all your beliefs), aren't actively analysing/reflecting on your point of view and all the potential basis of your beliefs before acting on a major decison than you have no true free choice. I didn't ment that preferences, values or desire were robbing you of your choices, but only those that were unconscious and unanalysed/uncriticised. In resume, you need a significant amount of insight and reflection on multiple level to make a real free and responsible choice.

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21-03-2016, 08:44 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(21-03-2016 08:40 PM)epronovost Wrote:  I didn't ment that preferences, values or desire were robbing you of your choices, but only those that were unconscious and unanalysed/uncriticised.

That I can understand and agree with. It would seem that we were simply talking past one another.

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22-03-2016, 12:12 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(21-03-2016 05:35 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Jesus Zeke, did you completely ignore the studies I showed you in this thread like, almost a month ago? Didn't you read about how biases affect the way we make choices?

Nope. I did my research, I will show you what I mean.

(21-03-2016 05:35 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Also, that video is full of bullshit. Yeah, sure, women dominate fields like biology and
veterinary medicine (which only serves to prove my point that women are made to think they can only do certain things, biology and veterinary medicine being considered "appropriate" for women anyway) but, newsflash, law has nothing to do with STEM fields and agriculture is not entirely engineering.

You misunderstood the video. She brings this point up in question of a scientific bias against women. The argument she is addressing was one in which people say that there are not enough women in stem. That is why she ask if there aren't enough women in physics because of bias, why are women dominating biology, which itself had a bias?

Also I would like a source that says biology is a woman's field. I looked into this and so far nothing has come up. In fact when I found something on it at best it was people claiming it. To add when did this stereotype start? Keep in mind that it is in recent years this has happened. So where is the evidence that people are saying biology is a women's field.

And I don't know why you brought up law in this? I brought it up earlier to bring up a point that the U.S, Canada, and many parts of Europe need feminism like a fish needs a bicycle.

(21-03-2016 05:35 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Her whole argument about male brains working differently than female ones also inadvertently refutes her argument about choice. If male brains work differently so men are "better at math", why do females dominate fields like biology?

Wrong. The point she is making that boys and girls tend to have a deposition, with boys generally favoring building things, and girls favoring helping things. However, she never said that this is always the case.

I would like to point out that choice in this case means how they fulfill this disposition. For example a woman can go and get a physics degree and still be a stay at home my until her child is older, while a man can become a biologist yet still build things in the house. Now another thing is that she is not speaking in absolutes. She is not saying that men will always pick maths and physics, and women always biology and medicine, just that men and women will express what is usually innate in them is a choice.

(21-03-2016 05:35 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Both problems are solved by this simple explanation: men and women are (not deliberately) raised to believe they are meant to do certain things and not others. Yes, our brains are different, but the number of women in STEM fields has only grown the last few decades. How is that explained then?

Well....... How do I break this to ya? No, not really. Now I am not dismissing that there are social factors, but they don't play as big of a role as believed. If anything they are more of a compliment to the biological factors. I will go over this later, but just know that their is a liberal bias in academia.

And it is simple to explain that during the from what like the 40's-late 70's there was a fight for womens rights called feminism, one of the greatest egalitarian movements in the west. This movement opened up the choices women could make later on in the future, and in developed countries we have those. However, 3rd wave feminism is not why. Hell the number of feminist has dropped in the last couple years http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womeninthewor...oll-shows/ . So how can feminism influence be dropping and yet more women are joining stem?


(21-03-2016 05:35 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Well, now, that's an argument. 99,9% of men I've met are assholes, so I guess that means that 99,9% of all men are assholes. Yeah.

You seem to have misunderstood me. I said this as said before on how females might choose to express a common and innate want for caring. Some females will not usually have this disposition, and that is fine. Nobody can stop them. The worst of this problem is people judging, which is solved by not giving a shit about what they think.

(21-03-2016 05:35 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  You're completely ignoring the role of psychology and how we are indirectly affected by things we are not even aware of.

Remember that liberal bias I brought up, let me explain this.

The issue of women and mathematics has been something of thought since 1999, with the upcoming of something known as the stereotype threat. The stereotype threat was studied in 1995, but 1999 was the year in which it was used on males vs females in math. This has become a large thing in social psychology, and has been the stand point for all of the well known for the women and mathematics studies in psychology. However stereotype threat is extremely flawed. First off there is the problem with the studies as they are not really repeatable. As shown here:

http://volition.gla.ac.uk/~stoet/pdf/Sto...GP2012.pdf

This paper goes over the problems with stereotype threat and the fact that it is popular because the fact it sounds better. Which sounds correct, especially within left leaning countries like Canada. Now this paper does not throw that bias might be the reason for women in math, but that it is not the major factor.

There is also a problem with publication bias within stereotype threat.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8519...ganley.pdf

http://www.vdare.com/posts/is-stereotype...ation-bias

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/10/is-st...ation.html

And this isn't the only problem within psychology. Take Judith Kleinfeld, a psychologist known for here controversy by pointing out bias in psychology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Kleinfeld

This is also the problem with the sources you listed, bias. They have there base in the stereotype threat, which was flawed from the get go. Again this goes back to the liberal bias I mentioned.

(21-03-2016 05:35 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  You can use the same argument to say that abused women consciously choose to stay with their abusive partner. It's all a matter of choice and freedom after all, right?

It is, however I think I made a problem in not explaining that choices can be good or bad. There are multiple reasons for her staying, and yes it does come to choice. The reasons can cause bad choices, as no person, man or woman, should suffer abuse from their partner. However they make the choice to stay with them for the reasons they make. Freedom of choice is involved, however it should also be noted that it is a bad choice.

(21-03-2016 05:35 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  I don't have much to say about the rest of your conversations in here but please, stop using the same old arguments which I have shown to be wrong (but you simply ignored the studies and refused to make further comments on it).

Don't mistake my laziness for ignoring. Trust me I started typing this at 11, and started playing mortal kombat before even starting this up again. I have saved drafts from post I was to lazy to make, so again it is my laziness. And over all my arguments aren't wrong, but instead are inconvenient. Which is the problem with 3rd wave feminism. Feminism in the west is not about facts, but an agenda. This agenda is why there is a large bias in psychology today. At least the psychology I have posted was able to be replicated. So these same old arguments are used to refute the same old falsehoods.

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22-03-2016, 12:53 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
@Metazoa Zeke

Biology is women field in the large sense of the term. Women gender role sets them has responsible for caring. Before modern medecine, herborists, apothicaries, nurses and other «doctors» were mostly women in our culture (not so much in China or Black Africa). It's only in the last 200 years that the tendency has been reversed. The biology field was developped amongst other thing (and I would dare say mostly) for and by the advancement of medecine. Thus, while not especially femine like nursing, it's strongly connected to it. Basically, highly educated women educate themselves in the field that matches the most their type of «calling» so to speak. Thus biology being a field of science dominated by women is neither surprising or unexpected.

Amongst other STEM domain with a strong women representation, you will see psychologie for the same reason. Caring for the destitute, the poor, the children and the elderly was (and still is) considered a women's «vocation». You can try to find biological reasons to explain the sex disparity (and there is some), but men have demonstrated that they can and do have the ability to develop the same level of skills and attitude to excel at those «vocation» time and again making. That's how we got people like Martin Luther King or Walter Reed. Why shouldn't we encourage them more since, despite their biological makeup, men are just as good then women at caring for the destitute, the poor, the children and the elderly? Enouraging people to do something they are not «naturally» inclined to do can only result in them developping new skills and a more profound mindset. Plus, studies have shown that sexual segregation (or any other type of segregation based on a visible minority) can affect negatively the formation and training of people in the minority by creating what is referred as a covert curricula (a formation that is passed through informal means like culture and attitude and isn't analysed, critiqued or evaluated impartially). Here is a an exemple of such a research for men in the caring domain (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.10...02352061). The effect is the same in male dominated domain. Covert curricula can appear and negatively impact the performances of people outside of «stereotypical» member of the group and thus lead to difficulty for non-stereotypical members of the group to enter, prosper, succeed and enjoy themselves during their training and later during their work. This in turn leads to even an even stronger form segregation (AKA if you are not doing it it's because you cannot possibly do it).

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22-03-2016, 02:41 PM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2016 02:46 PM by Metazoa Zeke.)
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(22-03-2016 12:53 PM)epronovost Wrote:  @Metazoa Zeke

Biology is women field in the large sense of the term. Women gender role sets them has responsible for caring. Before modern medecine, herborists, apothicaries, nurses and other «doctors» were mostly women in our culture (not so much in China or Black Africa). It's only in the last 200 years that the tendency has been reversed. The biology field was developped amongst other thing (and I would dare say mostly) for and by the advancement of medecine. Thus, while not especially femine like nursing, it's strongly connected to it. Basically, highly educated women educate themselves in the field that matches the most their type of «calling» so to speak. Thus biology being a field of science dominated by women is neither surprising or unexpected.

Amongst other STEM domain with a strong women representation, you will see psychologie for the same reason. Caring for the destitute, the poor, the children and the elderly was (and still is) considered a women's «vocation». You can try to find biological reasons to explain the sex disparity (and there is some), but men have demonstrated that they can and do have the ability to develop the same level of skills and attitude to excel at those «vocation» time and again making. That's how we got people like Martin Luther King or Walter Reed. Why shouldn't we encourage them more since, despite their biological makeup, men are just as good then women at caring for the destitute, the poor, the children and the elderly? Enouraging people to do something they are not «naturally» inclined to do can only result in them developping new skills and a more profound mindset. Plus, studies have shown that sexual segregation (or any other type of segregation based on a visible minority) can affect negatively the formation and training of people in the minority by creating what is referred as a covert curricula (a formation that is passed through informal means like culture and attitude and isn't analysed, critiqued or evaluated impartially). Here is a an exemple of such a research for men in the caring domain (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.10...02352061). The effect is the same in male dominated domain. Covert curricula can appear and negatively impact the performances of people outside of «stereotypical» member of the group and thus lead to difficulty for non-stereotypical members of the group to enter, prosper, succeed and enjoy themselves during their training and later during their work. This in turn leads to even an even stronger form segregation (AKA if you are not doing it it's because you cannot possibly do it).

I just want to say you gave me more to work with(笑). Don't worry this isn't a problem, but I just had to tell you it will take longer as I still didn't address your other points that you made. So excuse me if it takes a while to get back at youTongue

P.S: the link you gave on male caring didn't work, so could you just give me the name so I can check it out?

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22-03-2016, 02:57 PM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2016 03:12 PM by cjlr.)
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(22-03-2016 02:41 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  P.S: the link you gave on male caring didn't work, so could you just give me the name so I can check it out?

Just take out the misplaced punctuation from the url:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.10...0802352061

Although in the past you've just complained to me that you don't have access to the actual journals, rich though that makes your claims to be citing "science"...
(or, of course, to call literally entire fields conveniently "biased"!)

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22-03-2016, 03:03 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(22-03-2016 02:57 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Just take out the misplaced punctuation from the url:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.10...0802352061

Although in the past you've just complained to me that you don't have access to the actual journals, rich though that makes your claims to be citing "science"...
(or, of course, to call literally entire fields[ conveniently "biased"!)

Thank you. I will give it a read. Big Grin

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22-03-2016, 03:11 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(22-03-2016 03:03 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 02:57 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Just take out the misplaced punctuation from the url:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.10...0802352061

Although in the past you've just complained to me that you don't have access to the actual journals, rich though that makes your claims to be citing "science"...
(or, of course, to call literally entire fields conveniently "biased"!)

Thank you. I will give it a read. Big Grin

While you're at it and in light of another comment, you may also be interested in discussion from a recent issue of Science re: reproducibility; here and here.
(and glossed here, if the full text isn't available for you)

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22-03-2016, 03:26 PM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(22-03-2016 03:03 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 02:57 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Just take out the misplaced punctuation from the url:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.10...0802352061

Although in the past you've just complained to me that you don't have access to the actual journals, rich though that makes your claims to be citing "science"...
(or, of course, to call literally entire fields[ conveniently "biased"!)

Thank you. I will give it a read. Big Grin

You might want to start with this thow. Its going to give you a basis of the subject which in this case. It's a nice introduction for all it's worth and the best one I could find for free on google in my opinion.

http://www.academia.edu/8925551/overt_an...curriculum

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23-03-2016, 04:27 AM
RE: WTF Happened to the "Feminism" Movement?
(22-03-2016 12:12 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  You misunderstood the video. She brings this point up in question of a scientific bias against women. The argument she is addressing was one in which people say that there are not enough women in stem. That is why she ask if there aren't enough women in physics because of bias, why are women dominating biology, which itself had a bias?

Also I would like a source that says biology is a woman's field. I looked into this and so far nothing has come up. In fact when I found something on it at best it was people claiming it. To add when did this stereotype start? Keep in mind that it is in recent years this has happened. So where is the evidence that people are saying biology is a women's field.

How do you know it had a bias? Maybe women are simply not that discouraged to pursue a career in biology as they are in other STEM fields. Simple as that.

Why would you need evidence for this? Does it change the fact that the number of women in STEM fields in general is dramatically low compared to the number of men?

(22-03-2016 12:12 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  And I don't know why you brought up law in this? I brought it up earlier to bring up a point that the U.S, Canada, and many parts of Europe need feminism like a fish needs a bicycle.

When you post videos and someone comments on them, can you at least watch the videos yourself please? The woman in the video said something like "people say that there are not enough women in STEM fields, yet women dominate in fields like biology, veterinary medicine, agriculture and law".

(22-03-2016 12:12 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Wrong. The point she is making that boys and girls tend to have a deposition, with boys generally favoring building things, and girls favoring helping things. However, she never said that this is always the case.

Then why make the argument at all?

(22-03-2016 12:12 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  I would like to point out that choice in this case means how they fulfill this disposition. For example a woman can go and get a physics degree and still be a stay at home my until her child is older, while a man can become a biologist yet still build things in the house. Now another thing is that she is not speaking in absolutes. She is not saying that men will always pick maths and physics, and women always biology and medicine, just that men and women will express what is usually innate in them is a choice.

So it is a choice whether you will express what is innate in you? Things you're not even aware of? What the fuck are you talking about?

(22-03-2016 12:12 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Well....... How do I break this to ya? No, not really. Now I am not dismissing that there are social factors, but they don't play as big of a role as believed. If anything they are more of a compliment to the biological factors. I will go over this later, but just know that their is a liberal bias in academia.

And it is simple to explain that during the from what like the 40's-late 70's there was a fight for womens rights called feminism, one of the greatest egalitarian movements in the west. This movement opened up the choices women could make later on in the future, and in developed countries we have those. However, 3rd wave feminism is not why. Hell the number of feminist has dropped in the last couple years http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womeninthewor...oll-shows/ . So how can feminism influence be dropping and yet more women are joining stem?

Jesus, Zeke, focus. When the fuck did I even mention third wave feminism? When did I even imply that third wave feminism has anything to do with the number of women in STEM fields increasing?

What I said is that if men are inclined to like/be good at math and women are not (as the woman on the video implied) and that is the reason there are not enough women on STEM fields, why then is the number of women in STEM fields increasing? Are female brains mutating?

The mere fact the there are more and more women in STEM fields since feminism first started negates the idea that men are simply inclined to be good at math. Had that been the case, women would feel free to pursue a career in math or physics, but the numbers would soon drop because it's not "innate" for them.

(22-03-2016 12:12 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  You seem to have misunderstood me. I said this as said before on how females might choose to express a common and innate want for caring. Some females will not usually have this disposition, and that is fine. Nobody can stop them. The worst of this problem is people judging, which is solved by not giving a shit about what they think.

You don't choose to express care. You either care or you don't. I can't wrap my head around how you managed to rationalize this in your head.

(22-03-2016 12:12 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Remember that liberal bias I brought up, let me explain this.

The issue of women and mathematics has been something of thought since 1999, with the upcoming of something known as the stereotype threat. The stereotype threat was studied in 1995, but 1999 was the year in which it was used on males vs females in math. This has become a large thing in social psychology, and has been the stand point for all of the well known for the women and mathematics studies in psychology. However stereotype threat is extremely flawed. First off there is the problem with the studies as they are not really repeatable. As shown here:

http://volition.gla.ac.uk/~stoet/pdf/Sto...GP2012.pdf

This paper goes over the problems with stereotype threat and the fact that it is popular because the fact it sounds better. Which sounds correct, especially within left leaning countries like Canada. Now this paper does not throw that bias might be the reason for women in math, but that it is not the major factor.

There is also a problem with publication bias within stereotype threat.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8519...ganley.pdf

http://www.vdare.com/posts/is-stereotype...ation-bias

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/10/is-st...ation.html

And this isn't the only problem within psychology. Take Judith Kleinfeld, a psychologist known for here controversy by pointing out bias in psychology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Kleinfeld

This is also the problem with the sources you listed, bias. They have there base in the stereotype threat, which was flawed from the get go. Again this goes back to the liberal bias I mentioned.

The stereotype threat is not the only reason one's choices can be affected and I'm surprised you spent that much time looking only into one specific reason why women do not generally choose STEM fields.

The study you are showing me simply says that the stereotype threat might not be that important after all, although not entirely insignificant. They simply say that the psychology involved in those matters is very complicated and needs further study. How does that change anything? How does that negate the fact that there is, indeed, sexism?

And I mean, sure, if one person (Judith Kleinfeld) claims that psychological studies are biased then we should by no means believe them and base our whole worldview on them.

It is not just about the stereotype threat. There is also the effect of the self-fulfilling prophecy, learned helplessness and plain old sexism.

(22-03-2016 12:12 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  It is, however I think I made a problem in not explaining that choices can be good or bad. There are multiple reasons for her staying, and yes it does come to choice. The reasons can cause bad choices, as no person, man or woman, should suffer abuse from their partner. However they make the choice to stay with them for the reasons they make. Freedom of choice is involved, however it should also be noted that it is a bad choice.

Ok, now that's way over the top. Abused women choose to stay with their abusive partner? Like kidnapped girls choose to feel empathy for their kidnappers (Stockholm syndrome)? Or maybe like guilt-ridden raped boys choose not to talk about their abuse?

Are you seriously telling me this?

(22-03-2016 12:12 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Don't mistake my laziness for ignoring. Trust me I started typing this at 11, and started playing mortal kombat before even starting this up again. I have saved drafts from post I was to lazy to make, so again it is my laziness. And over all my arguments aren't wrong, but instead are inconvenient. Which is the problem with 3rd wave feminism. Feminism in the west is not about facts, but an agenda. This agenda is why there is a large bias in psychology today. At least the psychology I have posted was able to be replicated. So these same old arguments are used to refute the same old falsehoods.

One, you said it yourself that you don't take social sciences and psychological studies seriously back when I first provided those studies so no, there was no mistake on my part.

Two, what does third wave feminism have to do with this again? I thought we were talking about psychology?

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