WTF is a "Gnostic" Atheist
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06-12-2013, 07:28 AM
RE: WTF is a "Gnostic" Atheist
...and besides

(06-12-2013 07:13 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  That's overthinking it. What you allude to reads like deism to me. Personally, my atheism depends on your theism; a theist can call me any kind of atheist.

But the people in the boxes should know the boxes better than those outside. Know what's outside my box?

Agnosticism. There is no instance where the statements "god is unknowable and/or my knowledge is incomplete" are not true; making agnosticism trivial. Yet if some Aggie wanna start shit, I'll listen to it. Tongue

...which eliminates me from agnosticism in hella less words than would explain my gnosism. (Well, other than, I love my Gwynnies! Heart )

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06-12-2013, 01:12 PM
RE: WTF is a "Gnostic" Atheist
(05-12-2013 04:29 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Seriously who made this faux term ? are there atheists who "Claim" anything ?

According to this picture [Image: IYBCY13.jpg]

I've never met an atheist who claims to "Know" anything in fact.. who is making the claim again ??

Atheists don't claim anything they just disregard anything which isn't supported with a good theory or evidence

Is is Disregarding something preposterous equivalent to claiming something ?

Again i also don't think "Agnostic theist" makes any sense either.. theism by definition is a belief in something whereas being an agnostic is a skeptical stance.
I get the point you are making and technically you are correct. There is no way for anyone to be absolutely certain that there isn't a god out there somewhere in the vast universe since we can't examine every last corner of it (at least not yet).

But first, the issue is far more complex because in order to say you know something doesn't exist, you first have to understand what the something is. In this case, exactly what is "god"? If god is "Jesus", then one can be gnostic. But atheism is a lack of belief in any god so we need a definition that covers all possibilities of what "god" means. Some people would include Gwyneth Paltrow in that definition and then we atheists would have to concede that god does in fact exist. Extreme example, I know, but where do we draw the line between gods and non-gods?

But, more to the point, maybe a third term is needed in addition to gnostic and agnostic because I think there is "knowing" in another sense besides absolute certainty. For example, I "know" there is not an invisible unicorn standing next to me munching on popcorn. I mean sure, I could be wrong, but is it really reasonable to entertain that possibility? For science maybe (although science has far better things to spend its time on), but for every day living, no it's not. The term "agnostic" doesn't fit right because I wouldn't say I don't know the invisible unicorn isn't there, but I technically can't say with 100% absolute certainty that the invisible unicorn isn't there either. So maybe a third term equivalent to "reasonable knowing" is needed. And I think one can "know" in that same sense that there are no god or gods as well - assuming we could agree on a definition of "god". Tongue

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06-12-2013, 01:15 PM
RE: WTF is a "Gnostic" Atheist
(06-12-2013 01:12 PM)Impulse Wrote:  - assuming we could agree on a definition of "god". Tongue

My Gwynnies. Big Grin

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06-12-2013, 01:25 PM
RE: WTF is a "Gnostic" Atheist
(05-12-2013 04:29 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Seriously who made this faux term ? are there atheists who "Claim" anything ?
Most atheists are agnostic atheists, some are gnostic.
I think that a substantial amount of theists are agnostic but they don't agree to wear that label.

In colloquialism people misconstrued the term agnostic to mean "unsure" and atheism to either mean "lack a belief in god" or to mean "There is definitely no god".

There are many new atheists, having recently converted from theism that post the emotional "I was a theist, then I became agnostic, but now I am an atheist!"
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06-12-2013, 01:27 PM
RE: WTF is a "Gnostic" Atheist
There is a difference between "knowing" something and being able to prove something. Knowledge really is relative. Thus, I don't put as much weight on that word as some do. Some take knowledge to mean something that they could prove. I do not.

I know the sun rises each day. I know the tide goes in and out. I know if I jump off of a 30 story building and hit the concrete I will die. I know if I was naked with no tools, and I got in a fight with a Lion, I would be killed. I know aliens have not visited this planet. I know I can't inhale water as I would air. I know magic does not exist. I know magical claims are not true. I know there are no fire breathing dragons. I know there is no god.

Could I be wrong on any of these things? Sure, NOTHING is for certain. Do I think there is a reasonable possibility that I am wrong about any of these? No, not at all. Would I accept valid, objective evidence that showed me that I was wrong? Absolutely.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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06-12-2013, 01:37 PM
RE: WTF is a "Gnostic" Atheist
(05-12-2013 04:29 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Seriously who made this faux term ? are there atheists who "Claim" anything ?

...

I've never met an atheist who claims to "Know" anything in fact.. who is making the claim again ??

Atheists don't claim anything they just disregard anything which isn't supported with a good theory or evidence
Yes, I know several of them. Basically, you could sum it you saying an agnostic atheist lacks a belief in gods and a gnostic atheist believes that there are no gods.


(05-12-2013 04:29 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Again i also don't think "Agnostic theist" makes any sense either.. theism by definition is a belief in something whereas being an agnostic is a skeptical stance.
Yes, it does, and it's an important distinction to make. If you simply say the term "atheist" to a theist, a very large number of them will assume you are talking about gnostic atheists and start saying stupid things like "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist".
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06-12-2013, 02:00 PM
RE: WTF is a "Gnostic" Atheist
(06-12-2013 01:15 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(06-12-2013 01:12 PM)Impulse Wrote:  - assuming we could agree on a definition of "god". Tongue

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Predictable. Smile

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06-12-2013, 03:09 PM
RE: WTF is a "Gnostic" Atheist
(06-12-2013 07:13 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Agnosticism. There is no instance where the statements "god is unknowable and/or my knowledge is incomplete" are not true; making agnosticism trivial.
This is exactly how I feel about it.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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06-12-2013, 04:00 PM
RE: WTF is a "Gnostic" Atheist
(05-12-2013 04:29 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Seriously who made this faux term ? are there atheists who "Claim" anything ?

According to this picture [Image: IYBCY13.jpg]

I've never met an atheist who claims to "Know" anything in fact.. who is making the claim again ??

Atheists don't claim anything they just disregard anything which isn't supported with a good theory or evidence

Is is Disregarding something preposterous equivalent to claiming something ?

Again i also don't think "Agnostic theist" makes any sense either.. theism by definition is a belief in something whereas being an agnostic is a skeptical stance.

Well, I am making that claim, since I am a gnostic atheist.

the question is what we do mean with knowledge. Am I absolute positive about God's not existence? Nope. But I am not absolute positive about gravitation being always attractive, either. Who knows, maybe it is repulsive in some remote regions of the Universe.

The whole edifice of science is based on leaving the door open for corrections/revisions; that is, science is not absolutely positive about anything, by definition.

So, either we are honest about it and refute to claim knowledge of basically everything, or we claim to know something. But if we do the latter, I see no reasons to single out God and claim agnosticism about His existence which has no evidence whatsoever.

Ciao

- viole
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07-12-2013, 09:44 AM (This post was last modified: 07-12-2013 10:20 AM by BlackMason.)
RE: WTF is a "Gnostic" Atheist
Atheism and theism are positions on belief. The is a lack of belief and the other is a belief in gods, respectively.

Gnosticism and agnosticism are positions on knowledge. Gnostics claim to know while agnostics claim that it is not possible to know.

The positions on belief and knowledge are not mutually exclusive.

For the record: I think gnostic (strong) atheism is a fools game just like theism. I'd love to speak to a gnostic atheist and examine their evidence. Gnostic atheist are saddled with the same burden of proof theists have.

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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