WTF is up with David Smally?
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12-09-2016, 08:12 PM
WTF is up with David Smally?
I like his show even though it has changed a lot. An can not understand not having Rachael on anymore. For years I have thought him to be a reasonable, calm person in a conversation. That was, until I heard about his exchange with a lawyer, talked about on another podcast, atheistically speaking. I thought it didn't sound like something David would do, I even thought, maybe he was partaking in libation while on the net. I though I would hear on his show a response, a explanation, or apology. I didn't notice anything and had forgot about it till today when I listened to an episode of atheistically speaking.

I have to ask, is he losing his mind. I had a high enough opinion of David to have brushed off the first show talking about the encounter but after listening to his, what ever that was, I believe he might be losing his mind. It was right up there with Robert Price endorsing Trump. That level of crazy.

Did anyone else come away thinking David should have just come on and apologized to Andrew instead of acting like a victim the whole time? If he was worried about losing money/listeners, he sure didn't think through how he was going to come off. I have been on the fence about becoming a 4th listener, I now wish I had joined so I could cancel to show my distaste for how he handled this situation.

If he had only followed the old saying, What would Seth Do?

T.H.
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13-09-2016, 09:35 AM
RE: WTF is up with David Smally?
I used to listen to the show but haven't for a long time now so I have no idea what this is all about. Can you elaborate on what the actual issue is or provide a link to something summarizes it? All I gather from this is that he said something to a lawyer named Andrew that you thought was inappropriate.

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13-09-2016, 05:59 PM
RE: WTF is up with David Smally?
OK, I was curious so I did some digging

Here's the Atheistically Speaking podcast (2 hours - I didn't listen)

Transcript of at least some of the original discussion

Post by Smalley about the controversy

Post by Andrew Torrez

TL/DR version: The dating website Christian Mingle was sued in California because it offered only heterosexual options and California law requires businesses to not discriminate based on sexual orientation. Torrez argued for the plaintiffs and there was a settlement whereby the website agreed to offer same-sex options. Smalley objected to a business being required to offer specific services.

I'm not entirely sure which side I agree with and I don't know what services CM specifically promised to deliver before the lawsuit. If, for example, they had been refusing to make interracial matches I would probably agree that they were in the wrong. If they refused inter-faith matches I'd be much less inclined to fault them because their "product" is specifically by and for Christians. Same-sex matches seems closer to the latter than the former to me. I'm not so sure that niche providers should be forced to expand their offerings like that.

Note that I'm not saying that businesses should be allowed to discriminate. A bakery that sells cakes should sell them to any customer that can pay but a bakery that specializes in cakes should not have to bake a pie because some potential customers don't like cake. I guess the question is whether it is fair to say that CM was in the business of offering dating services in general or if it is reasonable to treat straight and gay dating as distinct services.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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13-09-2016, 06:06 PM
RE: WTF is up with David Smally?
(13-09-2016 05:59 PM)unfogged Wrote:  OK, I was curious so I did some digging

Here's the Atheistically Speaking podcast (2 hours - I didn't listen)

Transcript of at least some of the original discussion

Post by Smalley about the controversy

Post by Andrew Torrez

TL/DR version: The dating website Christian Mingle was sued in California because it offered only heterosexual options and California law requires businesses to not discriminate based on sexual orientation. Torrez argued for the plaintiffs and there was a settlement whereby the website agreed to offer same-sex options. Smalley objected to a business being required to offer specific services.

I'm not entirely sure which side I agree with and I don't know what services CM specifically promised to deliver before the lawsuit. If, for example, they had been refusing to make interracial matches I would probably agree that they were in the wrong. If they refused inter-faith matches I'd be much less inclined to fault them because their "product" is specifically by and for Christians. Same-sex matches seems closer to the latter than the former to me. I'm not so sure that niche providers should be forced to expand their offerings like that.

Note that I'm not saying that businesses should be allowed to discriminate. A bakery that sells cakes should sell them to any customer that can pay but a bakery that specializes in cakes should not have to bake a pie because some potential customers don't like cake. I guess the question is whether it is fair to say that CM was in the business of offering dating services in general or if it is reasonable to treat straight and gay dating as distinct services.

CM does discriminate. Their commercials don't mention hetero only but they only show hetero couples. I have to assume they are both single too. And you have to assume it's only for Christians.

A while back I somehow got on their email list. After just deleting several of the emails I decided to respond and asked if they really wanted a married atheist to sign up for their service...BOOM...end of emails.

I think they should have to be upfront with the service they offer...single, Christian, hetero...others need not apply.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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13-09-2016, 06:18 PM
RE: WTF is up with David Smally?
If white supremacists want to make a dating website that's only for white people, that's fine by me. You know how many damn dating websites are out there? It's not like you have to physically travel anywhere to land yourself on a different website, where you can hook up with potentially much more sane people.

If we came from dust, then why is there still dust?
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16-09-2016, 03:33 AM (This post was last modified: 16-09-2016 10:25 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: WTF is up with David Smally?
(13-09-2016 05:59 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I'm not entirely sure which side I agree with and I don't know what services CM specifically promised to deliver before the lawsuit. If, for example, they had been refusing to make interracial matches I would probably agree that they were in the wrong. If they refused inter-faith matches I'd be much less inclined to fault them because their "product" is specifically by and for Christians. Same-sex matches seems closer to the latter than the former to me. I'm not so sure that niche providers should be forced to expand their offerings like that.

Note that I'm not saying that businesses should be allowed to discriminate. A bakery that sells cakes should sell them to any customer that can pay but a bakery that specializes in cakes should not have to bake a pie because some potential customers don't like cake. I guess the question is whether it is fair to say that CM was in the business of offering dating services in general or if it is reasonable to treat straight and gay dating as distinct services.


Think of it like this.

If they offer a list of dudes to fuck, they cannot withhold that list from a dude because he wants to fuck those dudes.

Under California law, homosexuals are a protected class, this falls under the 'equal protection' of the 14th Amendment. It was also a settlement, and thus, not precedent setting.


As an aside, Andrew Torrez has a new podcast where he is teamed up with Thomas Smith (of Thomas Reads the Bible and Atheistically Speaking podcast fame) called Opening Arguments. The basic premise is exploring particular law topics with a Harvard lawyer and an inquisitive host. Also Torrez is the head legal counsel for and minority partner in Puzzle in a Thunderstorm, LLC (which is the vehicle used by Noah Lugeons, Heath Enwright, and Eli Bosnik to do their Scathing Atheist, The Skepticrat, and the God Awful Movies podcasts).

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16-09-2016, 04:02 AM
RE: WTF is up with David Smally?
They had a case which was judged and won by the plaintiffs. If CM wants to go further they can, but as it stands they were found guilty of discrimination. It's not like anyone's even arguing over whether the discrimination happens or not, just whether it's OK for them to discriminate in offering a service to clients. Judge say no.

Even the Christian bit Laughat could probably be challenged in terms of religious discrimination, unless they just said it was a marketing/branding gimmick and that they actually support dating all faiths.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-09-2016, 04:33 AM
RE: WTF is up with David Smally?
(16-09-2016 04:02 AM)morondog Wrote:  They had a case which was judged and won by the plaintiffs. If CM wants to go further they can, but as it stands they were found guilty of discrimination. It's not like anyone's even arguing over whether the discrimination happens or not, just whether it's OK for them to discriminate in offering a service to clients. Judge say no.

Even the Christian bit Laughat could probably be challenged in terms of religious discrimination, unless they just said it was a marketing/branding gimmick and that they actually support dating all faiths.

It was a settlement so no finding of discrimination was made.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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16-09-2016, 04:49 AM
RE: WTF is up with David Smally?
(16-09-2016 04:33 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(16-09-2016 04:02 AM)morondog Wrote:  They had a case which was judged and won by the plaintiffs. If CM wants to go further they can, but as it stands they were found guilty of discrimination. It's not like anyone's even arguing over whether the discrimination happens or not, just whether it's OK for them to discriminate in offering a service to clients. Judge say no.

Even the Christian bit Laughat could probably be challenged in terms of religious discrimination, unless they just said it was a marketing/branding gimmick and that they actually support dating all faiths.

It was a settlement so no finding of discrimination was made.

Ah well, fair enough. I didn't go digging further than your post and missed that it was a settlement.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-09-2016, 09:06 AM
RE: WTF is up with David Smally?
Here are the three of them duking it out for anyone who wants in on the drama: http://atheisticallyspeaking.com/as274-d...ew-torrez/

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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