Was Christianity invented to squash jewish rebellion?
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19-11-2013, 09:41 PM
RE: Was Christianity invented to squash jewish rebellion?
(19-11-2013 11:56 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:the letters of St Paul. He probably wrote in the 50s and early 60s.

Again....that's the story. But Justin Martyr writing in the mid-2d century to Emperor Antoninus Pius in Rome never mentions him. For that matter, Justin never mentions any of the 4 "gospels" by name, either. How is it possible that Justin has never heard of the man who supposedly brought xtianity to the gentiles a mere 90 years before?

Well it's like this. There were three main schools of Christianity in Rome in the mid second century. Marcion's, Justin's, and the Gnostics. Justin's was closest to what we now consider catholic Christianity. He was very much in opposition to Marcion. Paul was Marcion's guru. In fact it was probably Marcion who introduced Paul's writings to Rome in the 140s. So Justin wouldn't have read Paul or, if he did, would not have admitted it. It was only in the late second century, maybe the early third, that Catholic Christianity embraced Paul's writings, I think because they were trying to pinch Marcion's patrons.

Some commentators even claim that Marcion was, in fact, Paul. I find that extremely unlikely as Marcion would've had to have been a literary genius to have created Paul's character.
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19-11-2013, 09:49 PM
RE: Was Christianity invented to squash jewish rebellion?
(19-11-2013 11:56 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:the letters of St Paul. He probably wrote in the 50s and early 60s.

Again....that's the story. But Justin Martyr writing in the mid-2d century to Emperor Antoninus Pius in Rome never mentions him. For that matter, Justin never mentions any of the 4 "gospels" by name, either. How is it possible that Justin has never heard of the man who supposedly brought xtianity to the gentiles a mere 90 years before?

PS and the other interesting thing about Justin's writings, which are numerous, is that he never mentions Prince Peter, allegedly the first pope of his church. To leave something important like that out is unimaginable if it was true. Pope Peter is a myth!
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19-11-2013, 09:59 PM
RE: Was Christianity invented to squash jewish rebellion?
(19-11-2013 09:31 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I'm wondering why you think that Jesus is un-Roman-like?

The "ultimate authority" part. These guys had a method - send in the legions - and it worked. When it didn't, they reapplied Rule 1 until it did. There never was a call for a Rule 2. That was the MO, find something that worked, and stick with it. Just like when Julie played up his decent from Aphrodite to cement his position as First Counsel (or something); the Caesars following assumed divine mandate. They weren't gonna just give a higher mandate to a rube from the sticks to quell rebellion, cause it would just foster rebellion.

And these people were like, "me, now." They didn't have a whole bunch of "us, later" going on. Atwill's conspiracy could only be a long term, low margin option. Vespasian was smart, but he was a general, a Rule 1 kinda guy. A guy who knew the curule chair came with a hanging overhead sword, and spinning up crazy, shady shit like this ain't the way to thicken the treads.

And these are some gossipy fucks who wrote copiously. How da fuq could a scandal like this elude them, and us from hearing about it, is beyond me.

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20-11-2013, 01:19 AM
RE: Was Christianity invented to squash jewish rebellion?
(19-11-2013 09:59 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 09:31 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I'm wondering why you think that Jesus is un-Roman-like?

The "ultimate authority" part. These guys had a method - send in the legions - and it worked. When it didn't, they reapplied Rule 1 until it did. There never was a call for a Rule 2. That was the MO, find something that worked, and stick with it. Just like when Julie played up his decent from Aphrodite to cement his position as First Counsel (or something); the Caesars following assumed divine mandate. They weren't gonna just give a higher mandate to a rube from the sticks to quell rebellion, cause it would just foster rebellion.

And these people were like, "me, now." They didn't have a whole bunch of "us, later" going on. Atwill's conspiracy could only be a long term, low margin option. Vespasian was smart, but he was a general, a Rule 1 kinda guy. A guy who knew the curule chair came with a hanging overhead sword, and spinning up crazy, shady shit like this ain't the way to thicken the treads.

And these are some gossipy fucks who wrote copiously. How da fuq could a scandal like this elude them, and us from hearing about it, is beyond me.

Re...."These guys had a method - send in the legions - and it worked. When it didn't, they reapplied Rule 1 until it did."

Sorry....I disagree. Spreading propaganda and controlling public opinion was as much part of the ancient Roman government as it is today. Did you by any chance listen to the podcast about Vespasian that I provided a link to in post number 41?

Re..."And these people were like, "me, now." They didn't have a whole bunch of "us, later" going on."

Well… the dynasty prior to the Flavian's had lasted 100 years. Vespasian would have known that his son Titus was going to rule after him, and would've assumed that Titus' son would rule after him. They were in it for the long haul. I think there was also some altruism involved. The better Roman emperors actually had a love of Rome and did much of what they did for the good of the Empire. Caligula and Nero were obvious exceptions, but the Flavians were, in fact, good emperors.
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20-11-2013, 01:30 AM
RE: Was Christianity invented to squash jewish rebellion?
(19-11-2013 09:59 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 09:31 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I'm wondering why you think that Jesus is un-Roman-like?

The "ultimate authority" part. These guys had a method - send in the legions - and it worked. When it didn't, they reapplied Rule 1 until it did. There never was a call for a Rule 2. That was the MO, find something that worked, and stick with it. Just like when Julie played up his decent from Aphrodite to cement his position as First Counsel (or something); the Caesars following assumed divine mandate. They weren't gonna just give a higher mandate to a rube from the sticks to quell rebellion, cause it would just foster rebellion.

And these people were like, "me, now." They didn't have a whole bunch of "us, later" going on. Atwill's conspiracy could only be a long term, low margin option. Vespasian was smart, but he was a general, a Rule 1 kinda guy. A guy who knew the curule chair came with a hanging overhead sword, and spinning up crazy, shady shit like this ain't the way to thicken the treads.

And these are some gossipy fucks who wrote copiously. How da fuq could a scandal like this elude them, and us from hearing about it, is beyond me.

Re "And these are some gossipy fucks who wrote copiously. How da fuq could a scandal like this elude them, and us from hearing about it, is beyond me."

Don't forget that at best only 20% of the people in the Empire could read at all and maybe only 10% could read well. It wouldn't have been public knowledge that the new religion was propaganda. The new religion was intended for slaves and the hoi polloi... the lower classes who couldn't read or write. Those at the top may have been in on this scam, at least originally, but the plebs would've had no idea. And don't forget that in the fourth century most books and many public records were destroyed by you know who… the bloody Christians. If any of them had come across records that revealed that their religion was fabricated those records would've been burnt on the spot.
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20-11-2013, 02:57 AM
RE: Was Christianity invented to squash jewish rebellion?
mark I was watching program on pompeii
I got the impression that many romans of many classes even slaves could read
Sure the poor farmers and fishermen in Palestine clearly where mostly illiterate?

how do i do the qote thing ?
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20-11-2013, 07:15 AM
RE: Was Christianity invented to squash jewish rebellion?
I ain't buying it, Mark. Tongue

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20-11-2013, 05:35 PM
RE: Was Christianity invented to squash jewish rebellion?
(20-11-2013 07:15 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I ain't buying it, Mark. Tongue

Fair enough. BTW, the link is on post 31, not 41.
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20-11-2013, 05:39 PM
RE: Was Christianity invented to squash jewish rebellion?
Hmm.... I'll tell you Mark. The more I study these alleged first-century xtian writings the less authentic they look. Much of it seems to rely on a shaky epistle known as 1 Clement which scholars have dated to the "Persecution of Domitian."

Except....there does not seem to have been a persecution by Domitian.

I posted this over at AF.org.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-21936-po...#pid541350

Without 1 Clement there is nothing to sustain the later "traditions" of Peter and Paul dying in Rome... and even "Clement" doesn't say they were martyred!

Anyway....take a peek at Ogden's essay and let me know what you think. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders for this stuff.

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20-11-2013, 05:47 PM
RE: Was Christianity invented to squash jewish rebellion?
(20-11-2013 02:57 AM)PigMonkeyandFrog Wrote:  mark I was watching program on pompeii
I got the impression that many romans of many classes even slaves could read
Sure the poor farmers and fishermen in Palestine clearly where mostly illiterate?

how do i do the qote thing ?

I've never been able to work out the quote thing. Last time I tried to use it it fucked up my computer. There must be a simple way, but it's beyond me.

Reading and writing was very much an upper class thing only in ancient Rome. However, interestingly, some slaves were taught how to read and write because they were more valuable as slaves if they could. A slave who was literate was worth more than one who wasn't, all else being equal.

As far as the ancient Jews in Palestine were concerned I've read that literacy rates were only about 3%. To claim that peasants such as Jesus and his disciples could read and write is ridiculous. Yet the Catholic Encyclopedia takes this stupid argument one step further by claiming that some of the apostles could read and write in both Aramaic and Greek. They're trying to imply that it was the apostles that wrote the Gospels.
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