Was I out of line?
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01-03-2016, 07:40 PM
RE: Was I out of line?
(01-03-2016 02:07 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  ... However I'd never go to a church and bug them in their house ... if that makes sense ...

I disagree. I think we'd do well to do what they do - they come to our homes and tell us how wrong we are on our turf; we should do likewise, except without the abrasive "You're wrong and I'm right" block of sandpaper they rub people with.

I've been thinking of going to a church and after the service just stepping up and inviting anyone who has questions they can't get answers to, or is there out of obligation rather than real desire to be there, to give us a call. A brief statement, friendly and inviting, not contentious or accusatory, on their home turf, the church. Perhaps prefaced by saying it's a return courtesy - they come to our homes, we'll now come to theirs.

I just need to work up the nerve. But to regard the church grounds as something that should be respected - no sir, not by me. The church tramples all across the rest of our lives and culture heedless and rude - their church should absolutely NOT be some haven for them.
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01-03-2016, 09:59 PM
RE: Was I out of line?
As far as being "out of line" ... no at all.

You were dragged to church but you were still respectful of your surroundings. You listened to the sermon - probably one of the few - and expressed your thoughts on said sermon. You participated in fellowship. Frankly, the pastor probably likes talking to someone who actually thinks about his sermons.

Hey, you didn't throw rotten tomatoes at the pastor during his sermon. That would be out of line. Thumbsup

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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02-03-2016, 01:16 AM
RE: Was I out of line?
You have every right to question what you hear so I can't say that you were out of line.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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02-03-2016, 09:01 AM
RE: Was I out of line?
I don't think you were out of line. I hope that others in the congregation test the sermon from a theist point of view after the service? Why not a good question from a different point of view? As long as you weren't in their face and tried to show them up, it was a reasonable question.

Did you get a response?

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored- Aldous Huxley
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02-03-2016, 09:42 AM
RE: Was I out of line?
(01-03-2016 07:40 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  I've been thinking of going to a church and after the service just stepping up and inviting anyone who has questions they can't get answers to, or is there out of obligation rather than real desire to be there, to give us a call. A brief statement, friendly and inviting, not contentious or accusatory, on their home turf, the church. Perhaps prefaced by saying it's a return courtesy - they come to our homes, we'll now come to theirs.

If you live anywhere near me, I would strongly advise against this course of action. There may be a few churches where you could away with this, but not many. Even if it was tolerated at the moment, you would likely end up getting an "anonymous visit" from some in the congregation later on. That's assume they don't swarm you to "lay hands on" you and pray the devil away.

I just wanted to let you know that I love you even though you aren't naked right now. Heart
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02-03-2016, 11:57 AM
RE: Was I out of line?
(02-03-2016 09:42 AM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  . That's assume they don't swarm you to "lay hands on" you and pray the devil away.

That's assault.

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
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02-03-2016, 12:18 PM
RE: Was I out of line?
You were certainly not out of line. Sanctimonious twits need to be reminded that they are, in fact, sanctimonious twits.

Maybe next time your wife will not drag you to her fucking church.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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02-03-2016, 12:44 PM
RE: Was I out of line?
(01-03-2016 02:04 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  My wife drags me off to church on occasion, usually when I forget to turn off the alarm clock on Saturday night before bed. When I do go, I enjoy talking to the pastor after the service about my thoughts. Especially since he seems to talk about some atheist he met and had to deal with, just about every service I have been to. I won't go into every detail, but I will say I compared the god of the bible to little Anthony Fremont of (The Twilight Zone). He said "God does not punish.". I beg to differ. I asked if the whole pillar of salt thing rang a bell. That was just for turning around and looking back or in other words caring what happens to your fellow humans. There are many more examples, but I went with that one. I am curious if you feel I was out of line or not. They all know I am an atheist. It is no secret. I think there are a few members that won't admit to non-belief, but I can't prove it and I would not out them either.

If you feel comfortable enough to challenge little instances like this, I say more power to you. In fact I would encourage it. Churches need more people ready to ask questions, dispute assertions "in faciem", and not just credulously swallow every thing that comes across the pulpit. When I was still going to church I started questioning several pastors.

In one instance I asked why they were only sharing single certain biblical details that lined up with their doctrine and not others, especially when they were running series of sermons that stated other religions and doctrines were incorrect but theirs wasn't. I asked about the deceitfulness of this tactic....if they were going to exploit the reasons why they thought the other religions were wrong, they should also give the other side of why those interpretations were deemed correct on that side. Cherry picking the evidence to support your side is not an honest way to present an argument. I pushed back on responses, politely though.

I don't think I made any headway but you never know. At some point down the line, a seed of doubt may soon sprout. Tongue

**Crickets** -- God
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02-03-2016, 03:36 PM
RE: Was I out of line?
(01-03-2016 02:04 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  I won't go into every detail, but I will say I compared the god of the bible to little Anthony Fremont of (The Twilight Zone). He said "God does not punish.". I beg to differ. I asked if the whole pillar of salt thing rang a bell. That was just for turning around and looking back or in other words caring what happens to your fellow humans. There are many more examples, but I went with that one. I am curious if you feel I was out of line or not.
You were having a casual chat with the pastor, not interjecting (heckling) during his time on the podium. Not trying to tell the pastor he is wrong, not trying to get an argument going. But speaking from the "I".
You have been forced to come along (by your wife), it seems to be good that you are listening, thinking and discussing (participating, engaged) rather than just sitting there, looking at the ground (disengaged) and thinking about baseball (or whatever tickles your fancy). you are probably behaving better than some of the Christian participants already.

If I were to engage with a pastor, personally I wouldn't discuss the bible so much, but I would try to tackle what I would perceive to be the responsibility of a leader in a position where the followers' morals and thoughts are in his hands.
I'd probably point out that some Christians are mean to gays, mean to atheists etc. Some might be worried about their kids learning science (in particular Evolution). I might like to ask how a pastor tackles that problem, knowing that some of the congregation may take the Christian messages too far.
I'd tell him that I personally value diversity where people accept others for who they are (rather than judge), and to play nicely (rather than criticise or ostracise). That I value respect of people despite their diverse beliefs and lifestyles and that I also value people having a healthy inquisitive thirst for knowledge even if this knowledge may appear to be inconsistent with their beliefs. I might point out that my epistemology is based on objective discovery, where possible, with a healthy dose of skepticism and that I don't understand how people can come to knowledge via an authority such as church doctrine or bible stories. But that's just me.

Getting back to the topic of you and your OP, I don't see any issues with you engaging with the pastor as you have described.
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02-03-2016, 09:06 PM
RE: Was I out of line?
Out of line might be asking "Hey, have you sought any mental health professionals to deal with your delusions ?"

Or

"I contacted the CDC about the delusional epidemic that happening world wide. I think your church is going to be quarantined soon. Luckily I've been inoculated. I really hope they can find a cure before it's too late."

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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