Was Jesus illiterate?
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17-10-2011, 04:47 PM
RE: Was Jesus illiterate?
Quote:Was Luke Skywalker illiterate?
That question has just as much meaning, and at least Star Wars was a good story.
Now, you know Aunt Baru and Uncle Owen would've kicked Luke's ass if he did poorly in school. So no, Luke Skywalker was not illiterate.
He was just fictional.
Like Jesus.
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17-10-2011, 11:27 PM
RE: Was Jesus illiterate?
(14-10-2011 05:01 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  -In John in says "Jesus knelt and drew in the sand"

You know who I see in that line? Archimedes. One day I opened my Bible to John 8 and I "saw" that image on the page opposite the writing. The parallels make hella sense. Archimedes must have been a legendary wizard in the tales of the travelling jongleurs. The image of the final moments of Archimedes provides a perfect parallel to the beginning of John 8- and traveling storytellers were one of the few forms of entertainment back then - especially to the illiterate poor.

I don't accept there was an historical Jesus at all - but if there was, he was obviously illiterate.

(I hope "last few days of freedom" doesn't translate to "going to the Big House..." Good luck, regardless - I had no problem in the Big House.)

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17-10-2011, 11:51 PM
RE: Was Jesus illiterate?
Quote:...just around the corner from Nazareth.
Hmm... that caught my eye.
According to this lengthy literary work known as The Bible, the character called Jesus was a pretty cool guy. However, they call him "the Nazarene", as in "one from Nazareth". Well, evidently someone didn't pay attention to one of the previous authors and mistook or mistranslated(easy to do) a portion from the book where prophecy said that this Messiah or teacher(or Christ) would be a Nazarite. A Nazarite is a consecrated follower of the vows contained in the book Numbers (6:1-21)... way back when God and Moses were still on speaking terms. I checked it out and those Nazarite guys were way goofy. I'm not going to go into all the crap you had to participate in to become consecrated, but let's just say Jesus was no Nazarite.
Any-hoo, prior to this Jesus fella, whom we all agree is a heck-of-a-guy, there are no references to any such town called "Nazareth" … not even a region. No archaeologists have ever found any evidence that any place or area ever existed -not even in early Christian or Roman documentation. And those Romans were pretty anal retentive- they kept records of everything. It wasn't until the 17th century that the Gothic Church officially bought an area and called it "Nazareth" that such a place ever existed.

Kind of gives me a greater appreciation for Disneyland.

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18-10-2011, 01:41 AM
RE: Was Jesus illiterate?
(17-10-2011 11:51 PM)kim Wrote:  .
According to this lengthy literary work known as The Bible, the character called Jesus was a pretty cool guy.
I completely disagree with this assessment. Tongue

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18-10-2011, 08:00 AM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2011 08:06 AM by Shannow.)
RE: Was Jesus illiterate?
Kim,

It's not the topic of the OP, but I'll bite.

1. There have been people living in or around Nazereth for 9,000 years. Unsurprisingly the name of village may have changed a lot during that period. Source

2. Archaelogists have found Nazereth to be occupied during Jesus's time. Source

3. The Romans did keep records of Nazereth, we have some that reference Nazereth in 300AD. It probably contained less than 500 people which explained why it got less press than Alexandria or Jerusalem. Source

4. Was Jesus from Nazereth? Probably. Or that region. Was he a Nazerene/Nazorian/member of some obscure sect? Probably. Mark Fulton has a thread on this forum, search for "Was Jesus a terrorist" for some contraversial thinking.

5. Your final point is very wrong. Firstly, it's not the "Gothic Church", Gothic is a style not a religous denomination. In 1620 the Franciscans built the grotto of the Annunciation at the request of the Muslim Emir's who were bored of the Franciscans getting kidnapped all the time. They didn't brand it 'Nazereth'....becuase Nazereth was already there!

Happy to discuss.

S

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18-10-2011, 09:01 AM
RE: Was Jesus illiterate?
Sorry, Blush I should remember to never post while half asleep... meant to type... It wasn't until the 17th century that a Gothic Church officially bought an area and called it "Nazareth" that such a place ever existed.
However, naming a town in an area 300 years after someone's death has very little to do with that person being there during during their lifetime. And what with Jesus' Mom reportedly from a nomadic tribe, they all traveled about herding livestock and such, it's presumptuous to regard him from being anywhere in particular.
.................
And yes, houseofcantor, in several of the stories, Jesus could be a bit of a dick at times. To bad; he had such potential. I kind of liken him to Shakespeare's Hamlet character - neither one could get it together and just grow up. Probably their belief in the supernatural screwing with their sense of reason and responsibility - same old, same old.
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19-10-2011, 04:15 AM (This post was last modified: 19-10-2011 04:20 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Was Jesus illiterate?
(18-10-2011 01:41 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(17-10-2011 11:51 PM)kim Wrote:  .
According to this lengthy literary work known as The Bible, the character called Jesus was a pretty cool guy.
I completely disagree with this assessment. Tongue

Hi....nothing to do with the topic....I am in China on holiday....can't open your website....the internet police here must think you're unfit for the public....interesting heh.....we should be grateful we enjoy unlimited internet access.....hope I don't end up in prison for writing this LOL


(18-10-2011 08:00 AM)Shannow Wrote:  Kim,

It's not the topic of the OP, but I'll bite.

1. There have been people living in or around Nazereth for 9,000 years. Unsurprisingly the name of village may have changed a lot during that period. Source

2. Archaelogists have found Nazereth to be occupied during Jesus's time. Source

3. The Romans did keep records of Nazereth, we have some that reference Nazereth in 300AD. It probably contained less than 500 people which explained why it got less press than Alexandria or Jerusalem. Source

4. Was Jesus from Nazereth? Probably. Or that region. Was he a Nazerene/Nazorian/member of some obscure sect? Probably. Mark Fulton has a thread on this forum, search for "Was Jesus a terrorist" for some contraversial thinking.

5. Your final point is very wrong. Firstly, it's not the "Gothic Church", Gothic is a style not a religous denomination. In 1620 the Franciscans built the grotto of the Annunciation at the request of the Muslim Emir's who were bored of the Franciscans getting kidnapped all the time. They didn't brand it 'Nazereth'....becuase Nazereth was already there!

Happy to discuss.

S

Hi Shannow, thanks for this post! I was very interested to read that article about the discovery of a whatever from the first century in what is now Nazareth. I've never heard that before. The article is a little short on detail don't you think? I wonder how truthful it is. Have you come across this anywhere else? I would have thought if it was true it would be big news.
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19-10-2011, 05:26 AM (This post was last modified: 19-10-2011 05:43 AM by Shannow.)
RE: Was Jesus illiterate?
Hi Mark - long time no speak, hope things are going well with you...

The state of archaeology is a bit of nightmare in Israel, everything is controlled by the Israel Antiquities Authority - which casts a Jewish bias on most sources.

Anyway, there is a little more info from the IAA in thier press statement here, it's a relatively new find and the dig is still ongoing which is why detail is still quite sketchy.

Concerningly, the site sits on, or near the Church of the Annuciation, and the Catholics either have built or plan to build the 'International Marian Centre' on top of it (albeit presevering the site) which further damages the integrity of the find.

What can't be disputed though, is that Nazereth was a small settlement during the time of Jesus. It lends a bit more weight to the "Jesus of Nazereth" group of historians. I don't think this destabilises or changes the "Jesus the Nazerene" thinking at all.

This find also substantiates the theory that Nazereth was very small and potentially validates Joesephus. As you'll know, he did a kind of audit of all the settlements in Galilee, he stated that there were 219 settlements, but only mentions 45 by name. This find further substantiates the prevailing historical thinking that Nazereth and a further 173 communities were considered too small to be of historical note. Literally 1 horse towns....perfect breeding grounds for poor education and a breeding ground for fundamentalist views...hmmm...

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19-07-2013, 02:50 AM (This post was last modified: 21-07-2013 12:49 PM by Filox.)
RE: Was Jesus illiterate?
(14-10-2011 05:01 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Consider the facts.

-Jesus devoted his adult life to traveling town to town and preaching the word of God, yet never bothered to author a single document. If you're a godly being and your goal is to spread the word of God, you would think you would recognize the limitations of relying on verbal teachings. Words fade with memory after a few hours and the context often becomes obscured. Written text lasts for centuries and can travel the world faster than you ever could.

Is this a fact? Where does this fact come from? Actually this assumption shows a woeful ignorance of Jewish culture at the time of Jesus. The Parisees law was an oral tradition and as such was not written down but memorised. It was finally written down in 200CE by Rabbi Judah as he feared that there were not enough Jewish Rabbis and scholars left after the diaspora to maintain the oral tradition. You can find the law in the Mishnah or Elder Talmud.

Also all Jewish boys were taught Hebrew in order to read the Torah at the very least from the ages of 6 to 12. They then started work and learned a trade or could undertake further study and train as a scribe. This level of learning would be the same level that the Apostles received and were considered unlearned. A bit like not going to university. It was a minimum.

I think is would be very strange for Jesus to be illiterate. It would have been unusual in his culture and it would have been obvious to those he taught if he didn't know the law and was unschooled and he would have been criticised for it in the same way as he would have if he had been unmarried. It just doesn't add up when viewed through a cultural perspective.

Edited to correct the quote tag.
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19-07-2013, 03:08 AM
RE: Was Jesus illiterate?
First of all is it really a fact that the spoken word is unreliable as you suggest? Certainly not in Jewish culture at the time of Jesus. The Pharisees extensive law was an oral tradition and was memorised. It was not written down until 200 CE when Rabbi Judah feared that it would be lost as there were not enough Rabbis and scholars to maintain the tradition. Writing it down helped to preserve it, it can be found in the Mishnah or Elder Talmud. But scholars agree that having an oral tradition can be extremely accurate and limit errors that can occur in the transcribing of written documents.

Secondly it would be very strange for Jesus or the Apostles to be illiterate. All Jewish boys learned to read and write Hebrew from the ages of 6 to 12 at the very least. It was at this age they would then start to work and learn a trade or continue their studies to become a scribe. Therefore The Apostles who were fishermen would have started their trade at 12 and be considered unlearned because they had only received the culturally accepted minimum standard of education. They would not by any stretch of the imagination be unable to read and write.
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