Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
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28-02-2016, 04:47 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(28-02-2016 04:16 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(28-02-2016 03:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is a mountain of observable evidence for evolution and none at all for the existence of any gods.

That's called the real world.
Sure buddy

So, I see you have no argument. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-02-2016, 05:03 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(28-02-2016 04:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-02-2016 04:16 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Sure buddy

So, I see you have no argument. Drinking Beverage
Wasn't arguing about evolution. Fossils are evidence of previous life. Not exactly 100% irrefutable evidence of evolution. Faith, scripture, our conscience, the vastness, and complexity of all existence, the scientific claim that all existence is of one similar substance and other things lend themselves to the existence of a higher power, yet too aren't irrefutable evidence of GOD.
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28-02-2016, 05:06 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(28-02-2016 05:03 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Wasn't arguing about evolution. Fossils are evidence of previous life. Not exactly 100% irrefutable evidence of evolution.

Single fossils, no. The fossil record as a whole, along with the various other branches of evolutionary biology, yes.

Deliberately ignoring the evidence in play does not make your argument look particularly convincing.

(28-02-2016 05:03 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Faith, scripture, our conscience, the vastness, and complexity of all existence, the scientific claim that all existence is of one similar substance and other things lend themselves to the existence of a higher power

No, they don't.

Not even a little.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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28-02-2016, 05:20 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(28-02-2016 05:03 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(28-02-2016 04:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  So, I see you have no argument. Drinking Beverage
Wasn't arguing about evolution. Fossils are evidence of previous life. Not exactly 100% irrefutable evidence of evolution.

That is only some of the evidence. Are you even trying to understand?

Quote:Faith, scripture, our conscience, the vastness, and complexity of all existence, the scientific claim that all existence is of one similar substance and other things lend themselves to the existence of a higher power, yet too aren't irrefutable evidence of GOD.

How is it evidence? You are merely making an argument from personal incredulity.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-02-2016, 06:22 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(28-02-2016 05:03 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Wasn't arguing about evolution. Fossils are evidence of previous life. Not exactly 100% irrefutable evidence of evolution.

Which is why we don't rely on the fossil record alone. It is part of the puzzle and so far all of the pieces point inexorably towards evolution. That is why it is reasonable to accept the theory of evolution as proven to a very high degree of certainty.

Nobody but you is claiming 100% irrefutable anything. That's a strawman argument and illustrates once again that you haven't got a clue what you are talking about.

Quote:Faith, scripture, our conscience, the vastness, and complexity of all existence, the scientific claim that all existence is of one similar substance and other things lend themselves to the existence of a higher power, yet too aren't irrefutable evidence of GOD.

Please provide references for "the scientific claim that all existence is of one similar substance".

Faith and scripture are evidence of gullibility and ignorance more than anything else. Our conscience may even be evidence for evolution depending on what exactly you mean by that. It certainly is not evidence of any god. Your delusions are not evidence.

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29-02-2016, 01:48 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(25-02-2016 10:27 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(25-02-2016 10:19 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I see. Perhaps you will be able to cite some Bible verses that underlie the vague nature of my claims. Please post them here.

What are you talking about? The claims you have made right here on this forum are as vague as a horoscope or a fortune cookie, and as worthy of respect. If you think Biblical prophecies in general are any better than that, it's up to you (not me) to provide examples. Every one you have proposed so far has been a spectacular fail -- and has been shown to be so by numerous people on the forum. I'm not wasting my precious time reinventing the wheel or doing your homework for you.

You don't need to do my work for me. But you need to do the legwork for yourself, for your own soul's sake. However, here are more prophecy details. Let's start here:

Jesus hailed from Galilee: "...In Galilee of the Gentiles. The people who
walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in the land of
the shadow of death, upon them a light has shined...For unto us a Child is
born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting
Father, Prince of Peace."-Isaiah 9:2-6 (Isaiah is in the Jewish Tanakh, what
Christians call the Old Testament. Who is called today the Prince of Peace?
And so on...)

Messiah from David's house and followed by Gentiles: "...There shall be a
Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles
shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious." -Isaiah 11:10

Messiah would disseminate Law of Moses to the nations: "Behold! My Servant
whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit
upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles."-Isaiah 42:6

Messiah from a woman and hidden, also despised by Israel. "...The Lord has
called Me from the womb; From the matrix of My mother He has made mention of
My name. And He has made My mouth like a sharp sword; In the shadow of His
hand He has hidden Me, And made Me a polished shaft; In His quiver He has
hidden Me." ... "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant, To
raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I
will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, That You should be My
salvation to the ends of the earth. Thus says the Lord, The Redeemer of
Israel, their Holy One, To Him whom man despises, To Him whom the nation
abhors, To the Servant of rulers: "Kings shall see and arise, Princes also
shall worship, Because of the Lord who is faithful, The Holy One of Israel;
And He has chosen You."-Isaiah 49:1-7

Nations to spend their wealth on raising churches and memorials to Messiah:
"The Gentiles shall come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your
rising." ... The wealth of the Gentiles shall come to you. -Isaiah 60:3

Incense burned in Messiah's name worldwide: "For from the rising of the sun,
even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every
place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name
shall be great among the nations," says the Lord of hosts."-Malachi 1:11
(Tanakh)

Jews scattered for rejection of Messiah: "The Gentiles shall know that the
house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were
unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them. I gave them into the
hand of their enemies, and they all fell by the sword."-Ezekiel 39:23
(Tanakh)

Which Jewish person, from the House of David, made secretly inside a woman's
womb, who lived in Galilee and was despised by [most of] Israel, has
worldwide worshippers (from among all the Gentiles who spend their wealth in
His name and service) and came to earth to be rejected just before Israel
was scattered in 70 AD?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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29-02-2016, 02:52 PM (This post was last modified: 29-02-2016 03:00 PM by Grasshopper.)
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(29-02-2016 01:48 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(25-02-2016 10:27 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  What are you talking about? The claims you have made right here on this forum are as vague as a horoscope or a fortune cookie, and as worthy of respect. If you think Biblical prophecies in general are any better than that, it's up to you (not me) to provide examples. Every one you have proposed so far has been a spectacular fail -- and has been shown to be so by numerous people on the forum. I'm not wasting my precious time reinventing the wheel or doing your homework for you.

You don't need to do my work for me. But you need to do the legwork for yourself, for your own soul's sake. However, here are more prophecy details. Let's start here:

Jesus hailed from Galilee: "...In Galilee of the Gentiles. The people who
walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in the land of
the shadow of death, upon them a light has shined...For unto us a Child is
born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting
Father, Prince of Peace."-Isaiah 9:2-6 (Isaiah is in the Jewish Tanakh, what
Christians call the Old Testament. Who is called today the Prince of Peace?
And so on...)

Jesus is called “Prince of Peace” today because his followers, reading the above prophecy and believing that it referred to him, decided to call him that. This means nothing. Anyone can read a prophecy and then act in such a way as to “fulfill” it. So what?

Also, I am more than a little suspicious of the above translation. I don’t have my JPS Tanakh translation with me, but I found the 1917 version online, and the second half of verse 5 is translated “And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom”, with a footnote translating the bolded phonetic Hebrew as “Wonderful in counsel is God, the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace”. This is not at all the same thing as “He shall be called …Mighty God…”, etc. All of those attributions are to God, not to the person referred to in these verses. If you're going to quote the "Tanakh", you should really cite a Jewish translation rather than a Christian one.

Quote:Messiah from David's house and followed by Gentiles: "...There shall be a
Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles
shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious." -Isaiah 11:10

Messiah would disseminate Law of Moses to the nations: "Behold! My Servant
whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit
upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles."-Isaiah 42:6

Messiah from a woman and hidden, also despised by Israel. "...The Lord has
called Me from the womb; From the matrix of My mother He has made mention of
My name. And He has made My mouth like a sharp sword; In the shadow of His
hand He has hidden Me, And made Me a polished shaft; In His quiver He has
hidden Me." ... "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant, To
raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I
will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, That You should be My
salvation to the ends of the earth. Thus says the Lord, The Redeemer of
Israel, their Holy One, To Him whom man despises, To Him whom the nation
abhors, To the Servant of rulers: "Kings shall see and arise, Princes also
shall worship, Because of the Lord who is faithful, The Holy One of Israel;
And He has chosen You."-Isaiah 49:1-7

Nations to spend their wealth on raising churches and memorials to Messiah:
"The Gentiles shall come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your
rising." ... The wealth of the Gentiles shall come to you. -Isaiah 60:3

Incense burned in Messiah's name worldwide: "For from the rising of the sun,
even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every
place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name
shall be great among the nations," says the Lord of hosts."-Malachi 1:11
(Tanakh)

I don’t really care about any of the above, because, as Aliza has shown in considerable detail, Jesus (assuming he existed at all) was not and could not have been the Jewish Messiah. If these prophecies are valid at all, they are talking about someone other than Jesus.

Quote:Jews scattered for rejection of Messiah: "The Gentiles shall know that the
house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were
unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them. I gave them into the
hand of their enemies, and they all fell by the sword."-Ezekiel 39:23
(Tanakh)

I don’t think so. Ezekiel was talking about the Babylonian captivity. The Jews of the divided kingdom after Solomon were unfaithful to God, and were being punished for it. This is a recurring theme throughout the Old Testament, and it has nothing to do with Jesus. It is about their own time, not something hundreds of years in their future.

Quote:Which Jewish person, from the House of David, made secretly inside a woman's
womb, who lived in Galilee and was despised by [most of] Israel, has
worldwide worshippers (from among all the Gentiles who spend their wealth in
His name and service) and came to earth to be rejected just before Israel
was scattered in 70 AD?

Certainly not Jesus, since, among other things, he was clearly not of the House of David, no matter how zealously Christians tried to construct a case for that. They did a shitty job of it.
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02-03-2016, 08:33 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(29-02-2016 02:52 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(29-02-2016 01:48 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You don't need to do my work for me. But you need to do the legwork for yourself, for your own soul's sake. However, here are more prophecy details. Let's start here:

Jesus hailed from Galilee: "...In Galilee of the Gentiles. The people who
walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in the land of
the shadow of death, upon them a light has shined...For unto us a Child is
born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting
Father, Prince of Peace."-Isaiah 9:2-6 (Isaiah is in the Jewish Tanakh, what
Christians call the Old Testament. Who is called today the Prince of Peace?
And so on...)

Jesus is called “Prince of Peace” today because his followers, reading the above prophecy and believing that it referred to him, decided to call him that. This means nothing. Anyone can read a prophecy and then act in such a way as to “fulfill” it. So what?

Also, I am more than a little suspicious of the above translation. I don’t have my JPS Tanakh translation with me, but I found the 1917 version online, and the second half of verse 5 is translated “And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom”, with a footnote translating the bolded phonetic Hebrew as “Wonderful in counsel is God, the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace”. This is not at all the same thing as “He shall be called …Mighty God…”, etc. All of those attributions are to God, not to the person referred to in these verses. If you're going to quote the "Tanakh", you should really cite a Jewish translation rather than a Christian one.

Quote:Messiah from David's house and followed by Gentiles: "...There shall be a
Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles
shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious." -Isaiah 11:10

Messiah would disseminate Law of Moses to the nations: "Behold! My Servant
whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit
upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles."-Isaiah 42:6

Messiah from a woman and hidden, also despised by Israel. "...The Lord has
called Me from the womb; From the matrix of My mother He has made mention of
My name. And He has made My mouth like a sharp sword; In the shadow of His
hand He has hidden Me, And made Me a polished shaft; In His quiver He has
hidden Me." ... "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant, To
raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I
will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, That You should be My
salvation to the ends of the earth. Thus says the Lord, The Redeemer of
Israel, their Holy One, To Him whom man despises, To Him whom the nation
abhors, To the Servant of rulers: "Kings shall see and arise, Princes also
shall worship, Because of the Lord who is faithful, The Holy One of Israel;
And He has chosen You."-Isaiah 49:1-7

Nations to spend their wealth on raising churches and memorials to Messiah:
"The Gentiles shall come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your
rising." ... The wealth of the Gentiles shall come to you. -Isaiah 60:3

Incense burned in Messiah's name worldwide: "For from the rising of the sun,
even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every
place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name
shall be great among the nations," says the Lord of hosts."-Malachi 1:11
(Tanakh)

I don’t really care about any of the above, because, as Aliza has shown in considerable detail, Jesus (assuming he existed at all) was not and could not have been the Jewish Messiah. If these prophecies are valid at all, they are talking about someone other than Jesus.

Quote:Jews scattered for rejection of Messiah: "The Gentiles shall know that the
house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were
unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them. I gave them into the
hand of their enemies, and they all fell by the sword."-Ezekiel 39:23
(Tanakh)

I don’t think so. Ezekiel was talking about the Babylonian captivity. The Jews of the divided kingdom after Solomon were unfaithful to God, and were being punished for it. This is a recurring theme throughout the Old Testament, and it has nothing to do with Jesus. It is about their own time, not something hundreds of years in their future.

Quote:Which Jewish person, from the House of David, made secretly inside a woman's
womb, who lived in Galilee and was despised by [most of] Israel, has
worldwide worshippers (from among all the Gentiles who spend their wealth in
His name and service) and came to earth to be rejected just before Israel
was scattered in 70 AD?

Certainly not Jesus, since, among other things, he was clearly not of the House of David, no matter how zealously Christians tried to construct a case for that. They did a shitty job of it.

Some issues here include:

You excerpted the prior verse in your recitation of what you think the verse under discussions says. You can call God the Father "mighty" and not "mighty Messiah" but the verses immediately prior say, "To us a son is born, a child is given..."

Both genealogies in the gospels are direct to David.

The Ezekiel prophecy is one of quite a number I can show you, but the real issue IMHO is you are trusting Aliza to lead you further away from Jesus Christ. Have you asked God to show you truth? If you have, even if you are on this forum for another decade, He will show you truth--you simply have the responsibility on your end to respond. I responded to this truth:

1. I'm imperfect.

2. Jesus, being divine, is perfect.

3. He substituted on the cross for us both.

4. I trusted Him and my imperfections were healed. I'm still not perfect now, I'd mess up Heaven today, but when that time comes, I'll be made ready/perfect.

5. Step five is for you...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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02-03-2016, 08:53 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(02-03-2016 08:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(29-02-2016 02:52 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Jesus is called “Prince of Peace” today because his followers, reading the above prophecy and believing that it referred to him, decided to call him that. This means nothing. Anyone can read a prophecy and then act in such a way as to “fulfill” it. So what?

Also, I am more than a little suspicious of the above translation. I don’t have my JPS Tanakh translation with me, but I found the 1917 version online, and the second half of verse 5 is translated “And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom”, with a footnote translating the bolded phonetic Hebrew as “Wonderful in counsel is God, the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace”. This is not at all the same thing as “He shall be called …Mighty God…”, etc. All of those attributions are to God, not to the person referred to in these verses. If you're going to quote the "Tanakh", you should really cite a Jewish translation rather than a Christian one.


I don’t really care about any of the above, because, as Aliza has shown in considerable detail, Jesus (assuming he existed at all) was not and could not have been the Jewish Messiah. If these prophecies are valid at all, they are talking about someone other than Jesus.


I don’t think so. Ezekiel was talking about the Babylonian captivity. The Jews of the divided kingdom after Solomon were unfaithful to God, and were being punished for it. This is a recurring theme throughout the Old Testament, and it has nothing to do with Jesus. It is about their own time, not something hundreds of years in their future.


Certainly not Jesus, since, among other things, he was clearly not of the House of David, no matter how zealously Christians tried to construct a case for that. They did a shitty job of it.

Some issues here include:

You excerpted the prior verse in your recitation of what you think the verse under discussions says. You can call God the Father "mighty" and not "mighty Messiah" but the verses immediately prior say, "To us a son is born, a child is given..."

Both genealogies in the gospels are direct to David.

The Ezekiel prophecy is one of quite a number I can show you, but the real issue IMHO is you are trusting Aliza to lead you further away from Jesus Christ. Have you asked God to show you truth? If you have, even if you are on this forum for another decade, He will show you truth--you simply have the responsibility on your end to respond. I responded to this truth:

1. I'm imperfect.

2. Jesus, being divine, is perfect.

3. He substituted on the cross for us both.

4. I trusted Him and my imperfections were healed. I'm still not perfect now, I'd mess up Heaven today, but when that time comes, I'll be made ready/perfect.

5. Step five is for you...

All this about jesus and yet, there isn't a whole heap of proof outside of the bible that he ever had an earthly existence. There's no written evidence contemporary with jesus, even though he supposedly performed miracles and preached to crowds of 5,000. Yes, there's references and references to references about him after his supposed death but nothing contemporary.

Prior to Fitzgerald, Price and Carrier, scholars believed that at least jesus existed although the son of god bit was disputed. Now, more and more people are beginning to question whether jesus really did have an earthly existence. Fitzgerald, Price and Carrier are certainly of the opinion that he did not.

So, before claiming that jesus was this or that including being as mad as a box of frogs, perhaps we should start from the premise that he didn't exist unless it can be proved otherwise.

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02-03-2016, 09:59 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(02-03-2016 08:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(29-02-2016 02:52 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Jesus is called “Prince of Peace” today because his followers, reading the above prophecy and believing that it referred to him, decided to call him that. This means nothing. Anyone can read a prophecy and then act in such a way as to “fulfill” it. So what?

Also, I am more than a little suspicious of the above translation. I don’t have my JPS Tanakh translation with me, but I found the 1917 version online, and the second half of verse 5 is translated “And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom”, with a footnote translating the bolded phonetic Hebrew as “Wonderful in counsel is God, the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace”. This is not at all the same thing as “He shall be called …Mighty God…”, etc. All of those attributions are to God, not to the person referred to in these verses. If you're going to quote the "Tanakh", you should really cite a Jewish translation rather than a Christian one.


I don’t really care about any of the above, because, as Aliza has shown in considerable detail, Jesus (assuming he existed at all) was not and could not have been the Jewish Messiah. If these prophecies are valid at all, they are talking about someone other than Jesus.


I don’t think so. Ezekiel was talking about the Babylonian captivity. The Jews of the divided kingdom after Solomon were unfaithful to God, and were being punished for it. This is a recurring theme throughout the Old Testament, and it has nothing to do with Jesus. It is about their own time, not something hundreds of years in their future.


Certainly not Jesus, since, among other things, he was clearly not of the House of David, no matter how zealously Christians tried to construct a case for that. They did a shitty job of it.

Some issues here include:

You excerpted the prior verse in your recitation of what you think the verse under discussions says. You can call God the Father "mighty" and not "mighty Messiah" but the verses immediately prior say, "To us a son is born, a child is given..."

That’s completely irrelevant. The child’s name is not Mighty God, Everlasting Father (and who has ever called Jesus “Everlasting Father” anyway?), Prince of Peace, etc. – his name is “Wonderful in counsel is God, the Mighty, …”. All of those names that you are attaching to Jesus are names for God, not for the “child” in the previous verse. And again, as Aliza and others have repeatedly pointed out to you, this entire passage is about a sign for King Ahaz in his own time. It has nothing to do with events hundreds of years later.

Quote:Both genealogies in the gospels are direct to David.

But they are not direct to Jesus – only to Joseph, and both Gospels insist that he is not Jesus’s real father anyway. Therefore they are irrelevant. The Jewish Messiah was to be a direct descendant of David via Solomon – not a bastard stepson of someone who was somehow descended from David through two completely different lines (one of them not involving Solomon). And don’t give me this “Mary” crap. Neither genealogy says anything about Mary. They both go directly to Joseph, and they are different. They contradict each other. At least one of them is bogus. According to Aliza and her sources, they are both bogus.

Quote:The Ezekiel prophecy is one of quite a number I can show you, but the real issue IMHO is you are trusting Aliza to lead you further away from Jesus Christ.

I am trusting Aliza, as a Jew, to interpret Jewish scriptures more accurately than Christians with an agenda, who are known to twist the translation so as to see Jesus behind every burning bush. The Old Testament (i.e, the Jewish Tanakh) is about the relationship of Israel to their God. It has nothing to do with Jesus.

Quote:Have you asked God to show you truth? If you have, even if you are on this forum for another decade, He will show you truth--you simply have the responsibility on your end to respond. I responded to this truth:

1. I'm imperfect.

2. Jesus, being divine, is perfect.

3. He substituted on the cross for us both.

4. I trusted Him and my imperfections were healed. I'm still not perfect now, I'd mess up Heaven today, but when that time comes, I'll be made ready/perfect.

5. Step five is for you...

I trust none of that, and I arrived at that conclusion on my own long before I ever encountered Aliza or anyone else on this forum. The whole concept of God sacrificing himself to himself in atonement for our shortcomings (shortcomings that he knew full well we would have when he created us) makes no sense whatsoever. It is a crazy fairy tale dreamed up by people who had a tradition of blood sacrifice and vicarious atonement. Both concepts are barbaric and have been rightfully abandoned by reasonable people as the human race matured. When are you going to catch up with them?
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