Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
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07-03-2016, 10:42 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(07-03-2016 11:00 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 10:31 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Human sacrifice was one of the primary goals that Jews tasked themselves with eradicating.

Where in the scriptures (or Talmud or anywhere you like) were Jews tasked with the eradication of human sacrifice (among Gentiles)?

Claiming that God became human and died as a sacrifice is not a slap in the face to Jewish values, it's a rebuke to Jewish revisionist thought on the nature of the Messiah's mission. In Jesus's day, the people knew the Messiah-ben-Yosef would suffer for the people. They just didn't get that Jesus was also the Messiah-ben-David who would lead the people to ultimate victory in this world.

Modern Jewish thought (by modern, I mean post ANE/post written Talmud) decries having a human sacrifice for us. You should read the NT, though--it has immense volumes of apologetics within that will address most of your concerns.

The Jewish people have tasked themselves with the eradication of human sacrifice. In truth, if the Jewish people have tasked themselves with anything at all, we don’t need biblical backup to justify our actions.

It just so happens that we do have a biblical basis for our open contempt for human sacrifice; a lot of it.

I pulled the following information from the website, What Jews Believe, and just put my own spin on the page dealing with human sacrifice.

The Binding of Isaac: This is the story where G-d tells Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac. Most of you already know it, and it gets a bad rap because G-d commands Abraham to do this horrible thing. But point of the story is to display not to sacrifice humans. The culture surrounding Abraham was known to sacrifice people to their idol gods on a regular basis. This behavior would have been considered normal in Abraham’s era, and G-d specifically and deliberately acknowledges the behavior and makes a display of stopping it. [/quote]

To a Jewish audience, the message is very clear here: Human sacrifice exists. Don’t do it!

If you’re interested in a more in-depth explanation of the Jewish understanding of this story, click here to go to the What Jews Believe page which deals with this subject.

Deuteronomy 12:30-3 Wrote: (30) beware, lest you be attracted after them, after they are exterminated from before you; and lest you inquire about their gods, saying, "How did these nations serve their gods? And I will do likewise." (31) You shall not do so to the Lord, your God; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates, they did to their gods, for also their sons and their daughters they would burn in fire to their gods.

The Jews are going to be entering into land formerly occupied by idol worshippers who committed human sacrifice by burning their children to honor their gods. G-d is specifically telling them not to be like the idol worshippers who just lost their land because of their atrocious behavior. (Yeah, yeah, I know… “cultural sensitivity.”)

We don’t commit human sacrifice. It’s a bad thing and G-d doesn’t like it.

Jeremiah 19:4-5 Wrote:Jeremiah 19:4-5 (4)Because they forsook Me and they estranged this place and burnt incense therein to other gods, which they had not known, they, their forefathers, and the kings of Judah, and they filled this place with the blood of innocent people. (5) And they built the high places of Baal to burn their children with fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command, neither did I speak nor did it enter My mind.

G-d is speaking to the people of Jerusalem here who have fallen into the sin of idol worship by worshipping gods that their forefathers didn’t know. (Incidentally, Jesus was not a god that the Jewish forefathers knew either, and the Jews of this era understood that worshipping Jesus would be a sin for that reason alone.)

This passage talks about the horrific act carried out by the Jews of burning their children as one would burn an animal sacrifice. The punishment they endured was utterly horrific (keep reading in Jeremiah). Do you really think after reading this that G-d approves of human sacrifice?

Psalm 106:36-42 Wrote:(36) They worshipped their idols, which became a snare for them. (37) They slaughtered their sons and daughters to the demons. (38) They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters whom they slaughtered to the idols of Canaan, and the land became polluted with the blood. (39) And they became unclean through their deeds, and they went astray with their acts. (40) And the Lord's wrath was kindled against His people and He detested His inheritance. (41) And He delivered them into the hands of nations, and their enemies ruled over them. (42) And their foes oppressed them, and they were humbled under their hand.

Referring again to the Jewish people, we see here that the Jews had adopted the habits of their idolatrous neighbors and picked up the practice of human sacrifice. Does G-d reward the Jews for this act? No. The Jews are oppressed and ruled over by their enemies.

Ezekiel 16:20 Wrote: Ezekiel 16:20 (20)Then you took your sons and your daughters that you bore for Me, and you slaughtered them for them to eat. Were your harlotries a trivial matter, (21)That you slaughtered My children and gave them over by passing them over to them? …*skipping ahead*... (27)Now behold, I stretched out My hand over you, and I diminished your ration, and I delivered you to the will of those who hate you, the daughters of the Philistines, who were embarrassed by your lewd way.

The Jews are back at it with the idol worship and human sacrifice. This time they’re reserving one son in a family to learn Torah and lead a righteous path while the rest of their sons engage in idolatry. When the learned son is old enough, they sacrifice him to their idol god. Is G-d honored by their sacrificial system? Does G-d revel in the slaughter of the Jewish sons? Are the people’s sins erased because they murdered their children?

TL/DR: In this post, I’ve provided you with five examples of how human sacrifice is condemned by G-d and how the Jewish people have been severely punished over and over for worshiping foreign gods and engaging in human sacrifice.

Do you really think that just a few hundred years later, the Jews were going to look at Jesus and say, “Hell yeah! We’re going to give this another shot! Let’s all worship this god that our forefathers didn’t know and be washed in the blood of this human sacrifice!” –And not just a sacrifice of their own son this time.... no, we're going to worship the sacrifice of G-d's son Facepalm

(07-03-2016 11:00 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Claiming that God became human and died as a sacrifice is not a slap in the face to Jewish values, it's a rebuke to Jewish revisionist thought on the nature of the Messiah's mission.

Are you kidding me?

This is exactly why I continue to come back to TTA. I can’t let Christians come here and speak on our behalf like we have no valid culture or history, no voice, and no say over our own bible or the interpretations that we've held dear for thousands of years.
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08-03-2016, 06:21 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(07-03-2016 10:42 PM)Aliza Wrote:  We don’t commit human sacrifice. It’s a bad thing and G-d doesn’t like it.

How do you interpret Jephthah sacrificing his daughter in Judges 11 or the seven killed in 2 Samuel 21?

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08-03-2016, 06:23 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(07-03-2016 10:42 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(07-03-2016 11:00 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Where in the scriptures (or Talmud or anywhere you like) were Jews tasked with the eradication of human sacrifice (among Gentiles)?

Claiming that God became human and died as a sacrifice is not a slap in the face to Jewish values, it's a rebuke to Jewish revisionist thought on the nature of the Messiah's mission. In Jesus's day, the people knew the Messiah-ben-Yosef would suffer for the people. They just didn't get that Jesus was also the Messiah-ben-David who would lead the people to ultimate victory in this world.

Modern Jewish thought (by modern, I mean post ANE/post written Talmud) decries having a human sacrifice for us. You should read the NT, though--it has immense volumes of apologetics within that will address most of your concerns.

The Jewish people have tasked themselves with the eradication of human sacrifice. In truth, if the Jewish people have tasked themselves with anything at all, we don’t need biblical backup to justify our actions.

It just so happens that we do have a biblical basis for our open contempt for human sacrifice; a lot of it.

I pulled the following information from the website, What Jews Believe, and just put my own spin on the page dealing with human sacrifice.

The Binding of Isaac: This is the story where G-d tells Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac. Most of you already know it, and it gets a bad rap because G-d commands Abraham to do this horrible thing. But point of the story is to display not to sacrifice humans. The culture surrounding Abraham was known to sacrifice people to their idol gods on a regular basis. This behavior would have been considered normal in Abraham’s era, and G-d specifically and deliberately acknowledges the behavior and makes a display of stopping it.


To a Jewish audience, the message is very clear here: Human sacrifice exists. Don’t do it!

If you’re interested in a more in-depth explanation of the Jewish understanding of this story, click here to go to the What Jews Believe page which deals with this subject.

Deuteronomy 12:30-3 Wrote: (30) beware, lest you be attracted after them, after they are exterminated from before you; and lest you inquire about their gods, saying, "How did these nations serve their gods? And I will do likewise." (31) You shall not do so to the Lord, your God; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates, they did to their gods, for also their sons and their daughters they would burn in fire to their gods.

The Jews are going to be entering into land formerly occupied by idol worshippers who committed human sacrifice by burning their children to honor their gods. G-d is specifically telling them not to be like the idol worshippers who just lost their land because of their atrocious behavior. (Yeah, yeah, I know… “cultural sensitivity.”)

We don’t commit human sacrifice. It’s a bad thing and G-d doesn’t like it.

Jeremiah 19:4-5 Wrote:Jeremiah 19:4-5 (4)Because they forsook Me and they estranged this place and burnt incense therein to other gods, which they had not known, they, their forefathers, and the kings of Judah, and they filled this place with the blood of innocent people. (5) And they built the high places of Baal to burn their children with fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command, neither did I speak nor did it enter My mind.

G-d is speaking to the people of Jerusalem here who have fallen into the sin of idol worship by worshipping gods that their forefathers didn’t know. (Incidentally, Jesus was not a god that the Jewish forefathers knew either, and the Jews of this era understood that worshipping Jesus would be a sin for that reason alone.)

This passage talks about the horrific act carried out by the Jews of burning their children as one would burn an animal sacrifice. The punishment they endured was utterly horrific (keep reading in Jeremiah). Do you really think after reading this that G-d approves of human sacrifice?

Psalm 106:36-42 Wrote:(36) They worshipped their idols, which became a snare for them. (37) They slaughtered their sons and daughters to the demons. (38) They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters whom they slaughtered to the idols of Canaan, and the land became polluted with the blood. (39) And they became unclean through their deeds, and they went astray with their acts. (40) And the Lord's wrath was kindled against His people and He detested His inheritance. (41) And He delivered them into the hands of nations, and their enemies ruled over them. (42) And their foes oppressed them, and they were humbled under their hand.

Referring again to the Jewish people, we see here that the Jews had adopted the habits of their idolatrous neighbors and picked up the practice of human sacrifice. Does G-d reward the Jews for this act? No. The Jews are oppressed and ruled over by their enemies.

Ezekiel 16:20 Wrote: Ezekiel 16:20 (20)Then you took your sons and your daughters that you bore for Me, and you slaughtered them for them to eat. Were your harlotries a trivial matter, (21)That you slaughtered My children and gave them over by passing them over to them? …*skipping ahead*... (27)Now behold, I stretched out My hand over you, and I diminished your ration, and I delivered you to the will of those who hate you, the daughters of the Philistines, who were embarrassed by your lewd way.

The Jews are back at it with the idol worship and human sacrifice. This time they’re reserving one son in a family to learn Torah and lead a righteous path while the rest of their sons engage in idolatry. When the learned son is old enough, they sacrifice him to their idol god. Is G-d honored by their sacrificial system? Does G-d revel in the slaughter of the Jewish sons? Are the people’s sins erased because they murdered their children?

TL/DR: In this post, I’ve provided you with five examples of how human sacrifice is condemned by G-d and how the Jewish people have been severely punished over and over for worshiping foreign gods and engaging in human sacrifice.

Do you really think that just a few hundred years later, the Jews were going to look at Jesus and say, “Hell yeah! We’re going to give this another shot! Let’s all worship this god that our forefathers didn’t know and be washed in the blood of this human sacrifice!” –And not just a sacrifice of their own son this time.... no, we're going to worship the sacrifice of G-d's son Facepalm

(07-03-2016 11:00 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Claiming that God became human and died as a sacrifice is not a slap in the face to Jewish values, it's a rebuke to Jewish revisionist thought on the nature of the Messiah's mission.


Are you kidding me?

This is exactly why I continue to come back to TTA. I can’t let Christians come here and speak on our behalf like we have no valid culture or history, no voice, and no say over our own bible or the interpretations that we've held dear for thousands of years.

Another obvious incompatibility of the OT god compared to the NT one. The entire concept of a blood sacrifice is a callback to a primitive era of human sacrifice where this stuff was to somehow please a god.

It is freakin' 2016 and people like Q actually thinks this idea has merit. I wonder if the rules were to actually sacrifice a person every decade for your sin, would he go along with it? Probably, that's what religious robots do.

The only way blood sacrifice makes any sense is in a religious context.

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08-03-2016, 08:22 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
Quote:the interpretations that we've held dear
Which one exactly? There are so many, they are changing so often. I kinda lost track tbh.

Quote: for thousands of years
<2k, depends on the denomination, see above.
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08-03-2016, 01:25 PM (This post was last modified: 08-03-2016 01:45 PM by Leo.)
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(08-03-2016 08:22 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
Quote:the interpretations that we've held dear
Which one exactly? There are so many, they are changing so often. I kinda lost track tbh.

Quote: for thousands of years
<2k, depends on the denomination, see above.

Hey Aliza is a Jew. She isn't talking about Christians denominations. And the best way to understand the bible ( what Christians called the Old Testament) is to study it in the original Hebrew ( without the Christian bible mistranslations). A legit rabbi is better qualified by far to explain the bible than Christians pastors or priests.

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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09-03-2016, 10:03 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(07-03-2016 11:14 AM)DerFish Wrote:  OK Q tell us how the resting place of Jesus is glorious? I thunk he was supposedly in Heaven and still on duty. No?
These prophecies are obvious only to those who have been told all their lives what they mean, not to people who actually look at them trying to decipher meaning from them. I only insert myself into these conversations once in a while, when I am really curious about a specific thing. So can you explain what abotu the resting place of Jesus is glorious?
Messiah from David's house and followed by Gentiles: "...There shall be a
Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles
shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious." -Isaiah 11:10

"shall be" = future time

Jesus said of His first advent, "I don't even have a rock for pillow as I travel to preach."

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-03-2016, 10:06 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(07-03-2016 11:47 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(07-03-2016 10:56 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You do realize you are saying your life is worth sacrificing for collective lives, but that Jesus's sacrifice for the eternal lives of millions or billions wasn't worth it? That has to do more with your disbelief in heaven than in pure logic. Do you disagree?

So let me get this straight: In order to secure our eternal lives, God had to become human and allow us to kill him. Does that make any sense at all to you? Because it sure doesn't make any sense to me. If you think it's "pure logic", you need to brush up on your Logic 101.

I don't know that we can arrive at that by deductive logic.

But I can tell you that many people, to better express love, assume roles and role play, from counselors to bosses on reality shows who pretend to be employees.

If you have a dog who is ill and the opportunity to love the dog by speaking the dog's language...

I've tried, and I've tried, but I've had trouble thinking of what a person or being can do for me beyond dying in my place. I know if you were crossing the street and I pushed you out of the way of a moving bus and died, you would assert that I gave for you the best and all that I had.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-03-2016, 10:08 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(07-03-2016 05:34 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(07-03-2016 05:18 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I think it comes down to a turf war with him. Tongue
(Sorry, Q. Just teasing.)

...but probably correct, all the same. Q doesn't like people who know the Bible better than he does. Which is rather unfortunate, because he doesn't actually know it all that well, and thus ends up disliking most of the people here.

He can dismiss most of it as atheistic prejudice leading to misinterpretations of the text, of course (with his specific reading obviously being the correct one). Having another theist pointing out his failure to grasp the meaning behind the thing he's based his life around, though... that's got to rankle.

Yet surprisingly, I like you very much, though I know the Bible much better. I've memorized many hundreds of Bible verses, even entire chapters, and read the Bible in multiple versions and studied it in the original languages.

I don't think the atheist's problem is Bible study, though. I think it's rejection of the Bible and the love of its author.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-03-2016, 10:15 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(07-03-2016 10:42 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(07-03-2016 11:00 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Where in the scriptures (or Talmud or anywhere you like) were Jews tasked with the eradication of human sacrifice (among Gentiles)?

Claiming that God became human and died as a sacrifice is not a slap in the face to Jewish values, it's a rebuke to Jewish revisionist thought on the nature of the Messiah's mission. In Jesus's day, the people knew the Messiah-ben-Yosef would suffer for the people. They just didn't get that Jesus was also the Messiah-ben-David who would lead the people to ultimate victory in this world.

Modern Jewish thought (by modern, I mean post ANE/post written Talmud) decries having a human sacrifice for us. You should read the NT, though--it has immense volumes of apologetics within that will address most of your concerns.

The Jewish people have tasked themselves with the eradication of human sacrifice. In truth, if the Jewish people have tasked themselves with anything at all, we don’t need biblical backup to justify our actions.

It just so happens that we do have a biblical basis for our open contempt for human sacrifice; a lot of it.

I pulled the following information from the website, What Jews Believe, and just put my own spin on the page dealing with human sacrifice.

The Binding of Isaac: This is the story where G-d tells Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac. Most of you already know it, and it gets a bad rap because G-d commands Abraham to do this horrible thing. But point of the story is to display not to sacrifice humans. The culture surrounding Abraham was known to sacrifice people to their idol gods on a regular basis. This behavior would have been considered normal in Abraham’s era, and G-d specifically and deliberately acknowledges the behavior and makes a display of stopping it.


To a Jewish audience, the message is very clear here: Human sacrifice exists. Don’t do it!

If you’re interested in a more in-depth explanation of the Jewish understanding of this story, click here to go to the What Jews Believe page which deals with this subject.

Deuteronomy 12:30-3 Wrote: (30) beware, lest you be attracted after them, after they are exterminated from before you; and lest you inquire about their gods, saying, "How did these nations serve their gods? And I will do likewise." (31) You shall not do so to the Lord, your God; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates, they did to their gods, for also their sons and their daughters they would burn in fire to their gods.

The Jews are going to be entering into land formerly occupied by idol worshippers who committed human sacrifice by burning their children to honor their gods. G-d is specifically telling them not to be like the idol worshippers who just lost their land because of their atrocious behavior. (Yeah, yeah, I know… “cultural sensitivity.”)

We don’t commit human sacrifice. It’s a bad thing and G-d doesn’t like it.

Jeremiah 19:4-5 Wrote:Jeremiah 19:4-5 (4)Because they forsook Me and they estranged this place and burnt incense therein to other gods, which they had not known, they, their forefathers, and the kings of Judah, and they filled this place with the blood of innocent people. (5) And they built the high places of Baal to burn their children with fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command, neither did I speak nor did it enter My mind.

G-d is speaking to the people of Jerusalem here who have fallen into the sin of idol worship by worshipping gods that their forefathers didn’t know. (Incidentally, Jesus was not a god that the Jewish forefathers knew either, and the Jews of this era understood that worshipping Jesus would be a sin for that reason alone.)

This passage talks about the horrific act carried out by the Jews of burning their children as one would burn an animal sacrifice. The punishment they endured was utterly horrific (keep reading in Jeremiah). Do you really think after reading this that G-d approves of human sacrifice?

Psalm 106:36-42 Wrote:(36) They worshipped their idols, which became a snare for them. (37) They slaughtered their sons and daughters to the demons. (38) They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters whom they slaughtered to the idols of Canaan, and the land became polluted with the blood. (39) And they became unclean through their deeds, and they went astray with their acts. (40) And the Lord's wrath was kindled against His people and He detested His inheritance. (41) And He delivered them into the hands of nations, and their enemies ruled over them. (42) And their foes oppressed them, and they were humbled under their hand.

Referring again to the Jewish people, we see here that the Jews had adopted the habits of their idolatrous neighbors and picked up the practice of human sacrifice. Does G-d reward the Jews for this act? No. The Jews are oppressed and ruled over by their enemies.

Ezekiel 16:20 Wrote: Ezekiel 16:20 (20)Then you took your sons and your daughters that you bore for Me, and you slaughtered them for them to eat. Were your harlotries a trivial matter, (21)That you slaughtered My children and gave them over by passing them over to them? …*skipping ahead*... (27)Now behold, I stretched out My hand over you, and I diminished your ration, and I delivered you to the will of those who hate you, the daughters of the Philistines, who were embarrassed by your lewd way.

The Jews are back at it with the idol worship and human sacrifice. This time they’re reserving one son in a family to learn Torah and lead a righteous path while the rest of their sons engage in idolatry. When the learned son is old enough, they sacrifice him to their idol god. Is G-d honored by their sacrificial system? Does G-d revel in the slaughter of the Jewish sons? Are the people’s sins erased because they murdered their children?

TL/DR: In this post, I’ve provided you with five examples of how human sacrifice is condemned by G-d and how the Jewish people have been severely punished over and over for worshiping foreign gods and engaging in human sacrifice.

Do you really think that just a few hundred years later, the Jews were going to look at Jesus and say, “Hell yeah! We’re going to give this another shot! Let’s all worship this god that our forefathers didn’t know and be washed in the blood of this human sacrifice!” –And not just a sacrifice of their own son this time.... no, we're going to worship the sacrifice of G-d's son Facepalm

(07-03-2016 11:00 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Claiming that God became human and died as a sacrifice is not a slap in the face to Jewish values, it's a rebuke to Jewish revisionist thought on the nature of the Messiah's mission.

Are you kidding me?

This is exactly why I continue to come back to TTA. I can’t let Christians come here and speak on our behalf like we have no valid culture or history, no voice, and no say over our own bible or the interpretations that we've held dear for thousands of years.
[/quote]

God planned to sacrifice Jesus before Abraham. There are pictures of this sacrifice as early as Adam and Adam's immediate family. You'll want to pray about this doctrine, since it touches who the Messiah is, and you'll want to employ logic:

Why did God command Abraham to sacrifice Issac to show how "bad" human sacrifice is?

And know, I'm not kidding you. I'm aware of the abhorrence that Jewish people have to Christian gospel concepts, but a part of my conversion process was learning how the ancient Jews were expecting a suffering servant to redeem them, and how more modern revisionist thought changed the game.

By more modern, I mean after Jesus died and rose, and the synagogues started to have tension between Messianics and Traditionalists, and Jewish thought began to counter the claims of Paul and the apostles.

Only a fool would be unaware that Christian root concepts are antithetical to modern Jewish thought, but the careful researcher will understand why most, likely hundreds of thousands or more, of the early Christians were Jewish. Additionally, a part of my conversion process was seeing how Gentiles loved and adored the Tanakh scriptures, and treated them purely as G_d's Word to mankind, while many of the Jewish people I encountered, even rabbis, were saying "No, it's not the perfect Word of God... it's more like a manual for Jewish living..."

Y'shua said if you won't trust Moishe and what Moishe wrote, you won't place your trust in Him either. It would be a strange trip for you to be curious about atheism and become a Jewish Christian instead, but God is in the business of souls, and has a keen sense of irony about His business! I wish you well in your spiritual journey.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-03-2016, 11:27 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(09-03-2016 10:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(07-03-2016 11:47 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  So let me get this straight: In order to secure our eternal lives, God had to become human and allow us to kill him. Does that make any sense at all to you? Because it sure doesn't make any sense to me. If you think it's "pure logic", you need to brush up on your Logic 101.

I don't know that we can arrive at that by deductive logic.

But I can tell you that many people, to better express love, assume roles and role play, from counselors to bosses on reality shows who pretend to be employees.

If you have a dog who is ill and the opportunity to love the dog by speaking the dog's language...

I've tried, and I've tried, but I've had trouble thinking of what a person or being can do for me beyond dying in my place. I know if you were crossing the street and I pushed you out of the way of a moving bus and died, you would assert that I gave for you the best and all that I had.

But Jesus (even assuming that he existed, and that the Gospels are not pure fiction) did not die in your place. He got on the wrong side of the Romans, and they killed him. Period. It has nothing to do with you. You are still going to have to die, like everyone else.

If God wanted you to have eternal life, he could just give you eternal life. Killing himself (or allowing us to do so) does nothing to accomplish that. As I said, it makes no sense at all.
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