Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 1 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
09-03-2016, 12:21 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(09-03-2016 10:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I don't think the atheist's problem is Bible study, though. I think it's rejection of the Bible and the love of its author.

That isn't exactly a problem.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Unbeliever's post
09-03-2016, 02:55 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(09-03-2016 10:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(07-03-2016 05:34 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  ...but probably correct, all the same. Q doesn't like people who know the Bible better than he does. Which is rather unfortunate, because he doesn't actually know it all that well, and thus ends up disliking most of the people here.

He can dismiss most of it as atheistic prejudice leading to misinterpretations of the text, of course (with his specific reading obviously being the correct one). Having another theist pointing out his failure to grasp the meaning behind the thing he's based his life around, though... that's got to rankle.

Yet surprisingly, I like you very much, though I know the Bible much better. I've memorized many hundreds of Bible verses, even entire chapters, and read the Bible in multiple versions and studied it in the original languages.

I don't think the atheist's problem is Bible study, though. I think it's rejection of the Bible and the love of its author.

Authors* Q.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like ClydeLee's post
09-03-2016, 08:56 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(08-03-2016 06:21 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(07-03-2016 10:42 PM)Aliza Wrote:  We don’t commit human sacrifice. It’s a bad thing and G-d doesn’t like it.

How do you interpret Jephthah sacrificing his daughter in Judges 11 or the seven killed in 2 Samuel 21?

2 Samuel 21

I’m not familiar with the details of 2 Samuel 21, but just in a simple reading of the text, it didn't look like a case of human sacrifice to me. I wouldn’t try to make the argument that the actions taken here are biblically sound, kind or humane, but it seems that this was a punishment of some sort and not a human sacrifice. I will consult someone for more information on this if you want to discuss it further.

Judges 11
Jephthah is another situation entirely. The bible loves to expand on all of our screw ups and far less effort is spent glorifying and praising the Jewish people. -A further reminder that this book is intended as an internal document for the Jewish people.

As I was taught, Jephthah was said to be really ignorant of biblical law. Jephthah swears to G-d that he’ll sacrifice the first thing that comes out of the house, and even if he wasn’t considering that his daughter might have emerged from the house first, he still could not have sacrificed just anything because only kosher animals could be sacrificed. When it’s his daughter that he sees first, he’s torn between wanting to break his promise to G-d, and needing to sacrifice his daughter in order that he doesn’t break the promise.

There are two interpretations regarding the daughter’s fate. One interpretation says that she was not sacrificed literally, but that her life was dedicated to the service of G-d, and that she did not marry, hence her mourning over her virginity. This interpretation is lovely, but celibacy is not a Jewish idea. Why would that even cross their minds?

The other interpretation (and this is the one I will be focusing on for the rest of this post) is that she was literally sacrificed to G-d.

We see already that human sacrifice exists and that the Jewish position is that we should not do it. This portion of the bible is not condoning human sacrifice. It is stating that it occurred.

Here we see that Jephthah made a vow. This is considered to be very serious in Judaism, but what Jephthah doesn’t realize is that vows can be nullified. This is especially true if the vow involves breaking Torah law, and all of Torah law can be broken for the purpose of saving a life. This tells us that Jephthah may have been an important figure in his time, but he personally lacked an adequate Torah education.

Through this passage, we see Jephthah’s foolishness for making such a vow because it’s well stated in the Torah that only certain things can be brought for sacrifice. Dogs, cats, vultures, bears, … and people do not qualify to be sacrificed.

Judges 11:30 And Jephthah vowed a vow to the Lord, and said, "If You will indeed deliver the children of Ammon into my hand…

Judges 11:39 And it was at the end of two months, that she returned to her father, and he did to her his vow which he had vowed; and she had not known any man, and it was a statute in Israel.

As a result of this event, a statue was passed to prevent this from ever happening again. According to Rashi (which is a commentary on the Talmud), as punishment, Jephthah was afflicted with boils and six years later, he was dismembered and his limbs were buried in different cities of Gilead.

Judges 12:7 And Jephthah judged Israel six years; and Jephthah the Gileadite died, and was buried in the cities of Gilead. (note the plural, “cities”)

TL/DR: Jephthah committed an atrocious act that is not condoned in Torah law. He was foolish, ignorant, and he suffered a horrible fate as a result of his actions.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-03-2016, 06:25 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(09-03-2016 08:56 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(08-03-2016 06:21 AM)unfogged Wrote:  How do you interpret Jephthah sacrificing his daughter in Judges 11 or the seven killed in 2 Samuel 21?

2 Samuel 21

I’m not familiar with the details of 2 Samuel 21, but just in a simple reading of the text, it didn't look like a case of human sacrifice to me. I wouldn’t try to make the argument that the actions taken here are biblically sound, kind or humane, but it seems that this was a punishment of some sort and not a human sacrifice. I will consult someone for more information on this if you want to discuss it further.

Judges 11
Jephthah is another situation entirely. The bible loves to expand on all of our screw ups and far less effort is spent glorifying and praising the Jewish people. -A further reminder that this book is intended as an internal document for the Jewish people.

As I was taught, Jephthah was said to be really ignorant of biblical law. Jephthah swears to G-d that he’ll sacrifice the first thing that comes out of the house, and even if he wasn’t considering that his daughter might have emerged from the house first, he still could not have sacrificed just anything because only kosher animals could be sacrificed. When it’s his daughter that he sees first, he’s torn between wanting to break his promise to G-d, and needing to sacrifice his daughter in order that he doesn’t break the promise.

There are two interpretations regarding the daughter’s fate. One interpretation says that she was not sacrificed literally, but that her life was dedicated to the service of G-d, and that she did not marry, hence her mourning over her virginity. This interpretation is lovely, but celibacy is not a Jewish idea. Why would that even cross their minds?

The other interpretation (and this is the one I will be focusing on for the rest of this post) is that she was literally sacrificed to G-d.

We see already that human sacrifice exists and that the Jewish position is that we should not do it. This portion of the bible is not condoning human sacrifice. It is stating that it occurred.

Here we see that Jephthah made a vow. This is considered to be very serious in Judaism, but what Jephthah doesn’t realize is that vows can be nullified. This is especially true if the vow involves breaking Torah law, and all of Torah law can be broken for the purpose of saving a life. This tells us that Jephthah may have been an important figure in his time, but he personally lacked an adequate Torah education.

Through this passage, we see Jephthah’s foolishness for making such a vow because it’s well stated in the Torah that only certain things can be brought for sacrifice. Dogs, cats, vultures, bears, … and people do not qualify to be sacrificed.

Judges 11:30 And Jephthah vowed a vow to the Lord, and said, "If You will indeed deliver the children of Ammon into my hand…

Judges 11:39 And it was at the end of two months, that she returned to her father, and he did to her his vow which he had vowed; and she had not known any man, and it was a statute in Israel.

As a result of this event, a statue was passed to prevent this from ever happening again. According to Rashi (which is a commentary on the Talmud), as punishment, Jephthah was afflicted with boils and six years later, he was dismembered and his limbs were buried in different cities of Gilead.

Judges 12:7 And Jephthah judged Israel six years; and Jephthah the Gileadite died, and was buried in the cities of Gilead. (note the plural, “cities”)

TL/DR: Jephthah committed an atrocious act that is not condoned in Torah law. He was foolish, ignorant, and he suffered a horrible fate as a result of his actions.

Interesting. 2 Samuel 21 mentions more than once that the bodies were offered "before the lord" which indicates to me that they were intended as a sacrifice. It isn't clear that the sacrifice was demanded but there also doesn't seem to be a strong rejection of it either.

As far as Jephthah goes, the "she wasn't killed" interpretation of Jephthah is a real stretch. The other interpretation also seems to deal out a lot of sophistry. The story makes it clear that he made a really stupid vow but was rewarded for it in exactly the way he asked. He then went on to rule for 6 years and I don't see anything in the bible story that indicates any condemnation of the offered, and accepted, sacrifice.

I can't say how the "cities of Gilead" comes across in the original Hebrew but in the translation it just sounds like an idiom for "somewhere unspecified in Gilead". I never would have read into that that he was literally dismembered and buried in multiple cities. From an outsider perspective it sounds like people desperately trying to read things into the story to make it reasonable because they believe it and have to find ways to make it come out right.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes unfogged's post
10-03-2016, 10:12 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(10-03-2016 06:25 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(09-03-2016 08:56 PM)Aliza Wrote:  2 Samuel 21

I’m not familiar with the details of 2 Samuel 21, but just in a simple reading of the text, it didn't look like a case of human sacrifice to me. I wouldn’t try to make the argument that the actions taken here are biblically sound, kind or humane, but it seems that this was a punishment of some sort and not a human sacrifice. I will consult someone for more information on this if you want to discuss it further.

Judges 11
Jephthah is another situation entirely. The bible loves to expand on all of our screw ups and far less effort is spent glorifying and praising the Jewish people. -A further reminder that this book is intended as an internal document for the Jewish people.

As I was taught, Jephthah was said to be really ignorant of biblical law. Jephthah swears to G-d that he’ll sacrifice the first thing that comes out of the house, and even if he wasn’t considering that his daughter might have emerged from the house first, he still could not have sacrificed just anything because only kosher animals could be sacrificed. When it’s his daughter that he sees first, he’s torn between wanting to break his promise to G-d, and needing to sacrifice his daughter in order that he doesn’t break the promise.

There are two interpretations regarding the daughter’s fate. One interpretation says that she was not sacrificed literally, but that her life was dedicated to the service of G-d, and that she did not marry, hence her mourning over her virginity. This interpretation is lovely, but celibacy is not a Jewish idea. Why would that even cross their minds?

The other interpretation (and this is the one I will be focusing on for the rest of this post) is that she was literally sacrificed to G-d.

We see already that human sacrifice exists and that the Jewish position is that we should not do it. This portion of the bible is not condoning human sacrifice. It is stating that it occurred.

Here we see that Jephthah made a vow. This is considered to be very serious in Judaism, but what Jephthah doesn’t realize is that vows can be nullified. This is especially true if the vow involves breaking Torah law, and all of Torah law can be broken for the purpose of saving a life. This tells us that Jephthah may have been an important figure in his time, but he personally lacked an adequate Torah education.

Through this passage, we see Jephthah’s foolishness for making such a vow because it’s well stated in the Torah that only certain things can be brought for sacrifice. Dogs, cats, vultures, bears, … and people do not qualify to be sacrificed.

Judges 11:30 And Jephthah vowed a vow to the Lord, and said, "If You will indeed deliver the children of Ammon into my hand…

Judges 11:39 And it was at the end of two months, that she returned to her father, and he did to her his vow which he had vowed; and she had not known any man, and it was a statute in Israel.

As a result of this event, a statue was passed to prevent this from ever happening again. According to Rashi (which is a commentary on the Talmud), as punishment, Jephthah was afflicted with boils and six years later, he was dismembered and his limbs were buried in different cities of Gilead.

Judges 12:7 And Jephthah judged Israel six years; and Jephthah the Gileadite died, and was buried in the cities of Gilead. (note the plural, “cities”)

TL/DR: Jephthah committed an atrocious act that is not condoned in Torah law. He was foolish, ignorant, and he suffered a horrible fate as a result of his actions.

Interesting. 2 Samuel 21 mentions more than once that the bodies were offered "before the lord" which indicates to me that they were intended as a sacrifice. It isn't clear that the sacrifice was demanded but there also doesn't seem to be a strong rejection of it either.

I'll reply to your comments about Jephthah in another post. For now, I'll just discuss 2 Samuel 21 Smile

I’m just not that familiar with this story, but even after reading it again, I still can’t see how this can be attributed to being a human sacrifice.

The action in the story is being done by King David. King David was not known (to my knowledge) to have had a period of time where he departed from Judaism and followed the customs and traditions of another people, so my expectation is that his actions here were intended to be in concert with Jewish law. That being the case, if these men were sacrificed to G-d, then I would think that their “sacrifice” should follow the customs and traditions of the Jewish sacrificial system.

There are specific offerings for specific situations. We’ve got sin offerings, guilt offerings, peace offerings burnt offerings, and food and drink offerings. In the story of Jephthah, the daughter is being specifically offered as a burnt offering. No specific offering type is stated here, and the text doesn’t point to any of the following valid types of offerings. (I think we can just dismiss a food and drink offering, so I’m not going to address it.)

Burnt offerings represent a complete submission to G-d, and after being ritually slaughtered, the animal is then completely consumed by fire (no part may be used for food). I didn’t notice anything in the text to suggest that the bodies were burned, and humans cannot be burned anyway. They must be buried. –These human remains were protected from being pecked at by birds, and their bones were returned to their families for burial.

Sin offerings are given to atone for unintentional sin. The size of the offering was directly proportional to the severity of the mistake and the wealth of the person who made the mistake. These animals are then consumed by the priests for food. If this was a sin offering, then the sacrifice would have been ritually slaughtered and consumed by the priests as food.

Guilt offerings are given when someone deliberately steals something from the altar. These men were not killed as a result of having stolen something from the alter, so we can dismiss this one off the bat.

Peace offerings (the most common type) express gratitude and goodwill to G-d. The food is then consumed by the family (and neighbors) who offered the sacrifice. The text does not display that King David was offering the men in question to express gratitude to G-d.

Intentional sin does not have a sacrifice. Only repentance and a change of behavior can atone for intentional sin.

No sacrifice can be offered for another person’s sins. King David cannot atone for the father’s sins here, nor can the sons atone for the father’s sin by offering their life. To me, this looks like a punishment, not a sacrificial offering.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-03-2016, 12:35 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(10-03-2016 10:12 AM)Aliza Wrote:  No sacrifice can be offered for another person’s sins. King David cannot atone for the father’s sins here, nor can the sons atone for the father’s sin by offering their life. To me, this looks like a punishment, not a sacrificial offering.

I understand what you are saying. As I said, the killings were not demanded as a sacrifice but they were offered "before the lord" so the people doing the killing seem to be to be trying to make some sort of atonement through human sacrifice. I don't see much to indicate that it was accepted by the god but I also don't see much that implies that it was rejected either.

Jephthah is similar in that I don't see any actual condemnation of the act (I don't particularly buy into the boils and dismemberment claims). In this case it seems like the god was saying "let's see if you'll really go through with it if I make your daughter be the target" and playing games testing Jephthah. That's not in the story either but makes a lot more sense to me than attempts to say that the sacrifice was condemned.

I was really just curious what the Jewish perspective was on those chapters. I didn't expect to agree with it! Big Grin Thanks for the info.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-03-2016, 11:20 PM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2016 11:29 PM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(07-03-2016 10:42 PM)Aliza Wrote:  The Jewish people have tasked themselves with the eradication of human sacrifice. In truth, if the Jewish people have tasked themselves with anything at all, we don’t need biblical backup to justify our actions.

It just so happens that we do have a biblical basis for our open contempt for human sacrifice; a lot of it.

I pulled the following information from the website, What Jews Believe, and just put my own spin on the page dealing with human sacrifice.

The Binding of Isaac: This is the story where G-d tells Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac. Most of you already know it, and it gets a bad rap because G-d commands Abraham to do this horrible thing. But point of the story is to display not to sacrifice humans. The culture surrounding Abraham was known to sacrifice people to their idol gods on a regular basis. This behavior would have been considered normal in Abraham’s era, and G-d specifically and deliberately acknowledges the behavior and makes a display of stopping it.
Quote:To a Jewish audience, the message is very clear here: Human sacrifice exists. Don’t do it!

If you’re interested in a more in-depth explanation of the Jewish understanding of this story, click here to go to the What Jews Believe page which deals with this subject.

Deuteronomy 12:30-3 Wrote: (30) beware, lest you be attracted after them, after they are exterminated from before you; and lest you inquire about their gods, saying, "How did these nations serve their gods? And I will do likewise." (31) You shall not do so to the Lord, your God; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates, they did to their gods, for also their sons and their daughters they would burn in fire to their gods.

[quote]
The Jews are going to be entering into land formerly occupied by idol worshippers who committed human sacrifice by burning their children to honor their gods. G-d is specifically telling them not to be like the idol worshippers who just lost their land because of their atrocious behavior. (Yeah, yeah, I know… “cultural sensitivity.”)

We don’t commit human sacrifice. It’s a bad thing and G-d doesn’t like it.

Jeremiah 19:4-5 Wrote:Jeremiah 19:4-5 (4)Because they forsook Me and they estranged this place and burnt incense therein to other gods, which they had not known, they, their forefathers, and the kings of Judah, and they filled this place with the blood of innocent people. (5) And they built the high places of Baal to burn their children with fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command, neither did I speak nor did it enter My mind.

Quote:G-d is speaking to the people of Jerusalem here who have fallen into the sin of idol worship by worshipping gods that their forefathers didn’t know. (Incidentally, Jesus was not a god that the Jewish forefathers knew either, and the Jews of this era understood that worshipping Jesus would be a sin for that reason alone.)

This passage talks about the horrific act carried out by the Jews of burning their children as one would burn an animal sacrifice. The punishment they endured was utterly horrific (keep reading in Jeremiah). Do you really think after reading this that G-d approves of human sacrifice?

Psalm 106:36-42 Wrote:(36) They worshipped their idols, which became a snare for them. (37) They slaughtered their sons and daughters to the demons. (38) They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters whom they slaughtered to the idols of Canaan, and the land became polluted with the blood. (39) And they became unclean through their deeds, and they went astray with their acts. (40) And the Lord's wrath was kindled against His people and He detested His inheritance. (41) And He delivered them into the hands of nations, and their enemies ruled over them. (42) And their foes oppressed them, and they were humbled under their hand.

Quote:Referring again to the Jewish people, we see here that the Jews had adopted the habits of their idolatrous neighbors and picked up the practice of human sacrifice. Does G-d reward the Jews for this act? No. The Jews are oppressed and ruled over by their enemies.

Ezekiel 16:20 Wrote: Ezekiel 16:20 (20)Then you took your sons and your daughters that you bore for Me, and you slaughtered them for them to eat. Were your harlotries a trivial matter, (21)That you slaughtered My children and gave them over by passing them over to them? …*skipping ahead*... (27)Now behold, I stretched out My hand over you, and I diminished your ration, and I delivered you to the will of those who hate you, the daughters of the Philistines, who were embarrassed by your lewd way.

Quote:The Jews are back at it with the idol worship and human sacrifice. This time they’re reserving one son in a family to learn Torah and lead a righteous path while the rest of their sons engage in idolatry. When the learned son is old enough, they sacrifice him to their idol god. Is G-d honored by their sacrificial system? Does G-d revel in the slaughter of the Jewish sons? Are the people’s sins erased because they murdered their children?


TL/DR: In this post, I’ve provided you with five examples of how human sacrifice is condemned by G-d and how the Jewish people have been severely punished over and over for worshiping foreign gods and engaging in human sacrifice.

Do you really think that just a few hundred years later, the Jews were going to look at Jesus and say, “Hell yeah! We’re going to give this another shot! Let’s all worship this god that our forefathers didn’t know and be washed in the blood of this human sacrifice!” –And not just a sacrifice of their own son this time.... no, we're going to worship the sacrifice of G-d's son Facepalm

Are you kidding me?

This is exactly why I continue to come back to TTA. I can’t let Christians come here and speak on our behalf like we have no valid culture or history, no voice, and no say over our own bible or the interpretations that we've held dear for thousands of years.

[Image: latest?cb=20130227132133]

[Image: giphy.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Tartarus Sauce's post
10-03-2016, 11:37 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(09-03-2016 10:15 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  God planned to sacrifice Jesus before Abraham. There are pictures of this sacrifice as early as Adam and Adam's immediate family. You'll want to pray about this doctrine, since it touches who the Messiah is, and you'll want to employ logic:

Why did God command Abraham to sacrifice Issac to show how "bad" human sacrifice is?

And know, I'm not kidding you. I'm aware of the abhorrence that Jewish people have to Christian gospel concepts, but a part of my conversion process was learning how the ancient Jews were expecting a suffering servant to redeem them, and how more modern revisionist thought changed the game.

By more modern, I mean after Jesus died and rose, and the synagogues started to have tension between Messianics and Traditionalists, and Jewish thought began to counter the claims of Paul and the apostles.

Only a fool would be unaware that Christian root concepts are antithetical to modern Jewish thought, but the careful researcher will understand why most, likely hundreds of thousands or more, of the early Christians were Jewish. Additionally, a part of my conversion process was seeing how Gentiles loved and adored the Tanakh scriptures, and treated them purely as G_d's Word to mankind, while many of the Jewish people I encountered, even rabbis, were saying "No, it's not the perfect Word of God... it's more like a manual for Jewish living..."

Y'shua said if you won't trust Moishe and what Moishe wrote, you won't place your trust in Him either. It would be a strange trip for you to be curious about atheism and become a Jewish Christian instead, but God is in the business of souls, and has a keen sense of irony about His business! I wish you well in your spiritual journey.

You are a member of a religion which has appropriated the history and scripture of the parent religion and then twisted it into a new framework which claims to supplant the centuries of culture and tradition of a distinct group of people, and as a dutiful observer of this insurgent sect, you possess the gall to speak for how Jews interpret their own writings despite being outclassed in your own knowledge of their literature.

You deserve every ounce of ire cast in your direction.

[Image: giphy.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like Tartarus Sauce's post
10-03-2016, 11:39 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(10-03-2016 11:37 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  
(09-03-2016 10:15 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  God planned to sacrifice Jesus before Abraham. There are pictures of this sacrifice as early as Adam and Adam's immediate family. You'll want to pray about this doctrine, since it touches who the Messiah is, and you'll want to employ logic:

Why did God command Abraham to sacrifice Issac to show how "bad" human sacrifice is?

And know, I'm not kidding you. I'm aware of the abhorrence that Jewish people have to Christian gospel concepts, but a part of my conversion process was learning how the ancient Jews were expecting a suffering servant to redeem them, and how more modern revisionist thought changed the game.

By more modern, I mean after Jesus died and rose, and the synagogues started to have tension between Messianics and Traditionalists, and Jewish thought began to counter the claims of Paul and the apostles.

Only a fool would be unaware that Christian root concepts are antithetical to modern Jewish thought, but the careful researcher will understand why most, likely hundreds of thousands or more, of the early Christians were Jewish. Additionally, a part of my conversion process was seeing how Gentiles loved and adored the Tanakh scriptures, and treated them purely as G_d's Word to mankind, while many of the Jewish people I encountered, even rabbis, were saying "No, it's not the perfect Word of God... it's more like a manual for Jewish living..."

Y'shua said if you won't trust Moishe and what Moishe wrote, you won't place your trust in Him either. It would be a strange trip for you to be curious about atheism and become a Jewish Christian instead, but God is in the business of souls, and has a keen sense of irony about His business! I wish you well in your spiritual journey.

You are a member of a religion which has appropriated the history and scripture of the parent religion and then twisted it into a new framework which claims to supplant the centuries of culture and tradition of a distinct group of people, and as a dutiful observer of this insurgent sect, you possess the gall to speak for how Jews interpret their own writings despite being outclassed in your own knowledge of their literature.

You deserve every ounce of ire cast in your direction.

[Image: b6ef05717d1b7c3fc25ba0fa06cb6268.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Aliza's post
11-03-2016, 08:18 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(09-03-2016 10:15 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(07-03-2016 10:42 PM)Aliza Wrote:  The Binding of Isaac: This is the story where G-d tells Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac. Most of you already know it, and it gets a bad rap because G-d commands Abraham to do this horrible thing. But point of the story is to display not to sacrifice humans. The culture surrounding Abraham was known to sacrifice people to their idol gods on a regular basis. This behavior would have been considered normal in Abraham’s era, and G-d specifically and deliberately acknowledges the behavior and makes a display of stopping it.
To a Jewish audience, the message is very clear here: Human sacrifice exists. Don’t do it!
If you’re interested in a more in-depth explanation of the Jewish understanding of this story, click here to go to the What Jews Believe page which deals with this subject.

God planned to sacrifice Jesus before Abraham. There are pictures of this sacrifice as early as Adam and Adam's immediate family. You'll want to pray about this doctrine, since it touches who the Messiah is, and you'll want to employ logic:
Why did God command Abraham to sacrifice Issac to show how "bad" human sacrifice is?

It might be relevant to mention here that Abraham failed the test that G-d issued. He was intended to challenge G-d’s command, and he was given until the last second to ask the question, “What the hell am I doing?!” It was his blind obedience to G-d that prevented him from seeing clearly.

Blind obedience to G-d is not a Jewish value. You’re supposed to use your brain and apply Jewish law (commandments) in a sensible manner. Be compassionate, measured, and honor the preservation of all life even at the cost of defying G-d's commandments.

(09-03-2016 10:15 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  [Regarding human sacrifice] ...I'm aware of the abhorrence that Jewish people have to Christian gospel concepts, but a part of my conversion process was learning how the ancient Jews were expecting a suffering servant to redeem them, and how more modern revisionist thought changed the game.

By more modern, I mean after Jesus died and rose, and the synagogues started to have tension between Messianics and Traditionalists, and Jewish thought began to counter the claims of Paul and the apostles.

This is where we have a disagreement. Jews did not begin to counter Paul and the apostles. Jewish thought, by its nature, always was in discord with Christianity. The evidence is on our side because the NT literally mistranslated, misquoted, and in one case, even made up a quote from the Hebrew bible. This expectation that we “should have recognized” Jesus as the messiah is anti-Jewish propaganda created by Christians to discredit Jewish ideas which conflicted with their world view, and their later grip on control over the people.

The subject of human sacrifice was well established in the Hebrew bible. This didn’t pop up after Jesus died in some lame attempt to discredit him; it’s documented all over the Hebrew Bible and the message is pretty clear even if you’re not familiar with Talmudic explanations.

We are not, and have never been, looking for a “suffering servant” in the sense that Christians think. Messiah ben Joseph will serve as a wake-up call for the Jewish people, and by virtue of the fact that we are having this discussion, Jesus has clearly has not fulfilled that role.

(09-03-2016 10:15 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Only a fool would be unaware that Christian root concepts are antithetical to modern Jewish thought, but the careful researcher will understand why most, likely hundreds of thousands or more, of the early Christians were Jewish. Additionally, a part of my conversion process was seeing how Gentiles loved and adored the Tanakh scriptures, and treated them purely as G_d's Word to mankind, while many of the Jewish people I encountered, even rabbis, were saying "No, it's not the perfect Word of God... it's more like a manual for Jewish living..."

The early Christians were Jewish. I don’t think anyone disputes that. But Paul was having trouble selling his religion to Jews, so he opened the doors to gentiles. He did away with the Mosaic law in an effort to make his new religion more appealing to the Roman gentiles he was proselytizing to. It can be very difficult to convince an adult male to cut off part of his penis if he’s not even from a culture that values such tradition!

I’m not disputing that Christians love the Old Testament as translated by their own people. I’m disputing that they have any idea how to read the real book, or that they even realize that their translations are wrong.

The Jewish scriptures are a manual for living. I can be quoted having said that on this forum a few times. It’s not a story of creation. It’s not a story about floods. It’s not even a story about the messiah, though the later books do address that. No, this is a book about how Jews are supposed to live their lives. It expands on every screw up to serve as a warning of what not to do. Take off your Christian glasses and read it again. The message is painfully clear.

(09-03-2016 10:15 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  …a part of my conversion process…

What is your original religion? Are you from a Jewish background by any chance?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: