Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
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11-03-2016, 10:06 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(11-03-2016 08:18 AM)Aliza Wrote:  It might be relevant to mention here that Abraham failed the test that G-d issued. He was intended to challenge G-d’s command, and he was given until the last second to ask the question, “What the hell am I doing?!” It was his blind obedience to G-d that prevented him from seeing clearly.

Blind obedience to G-d is not a Jewish value. You’re supposed to use your brain and apply Jewish law (commandments) in a sensible manner. Be compassionate, measured, and honor the preservation of all life even at the cost of defying G-d's commandments.

While I think that's a MUCH better view than the typical xian one, I do not see how you can get it from the story.

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11-03-2016, 11:00 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(11-03-2016 10:06 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(11-03-2016 08:18 AM)Aliza Wrote:  It might be relevant to mention here that Abraham failed the test that G-d issued. He was intended to challenge G-d’s command, and he was given until the last second to ask the question, “What the hell am I doing?!” It was his blind obedience to G-d that prevented him from seeing clearly.

Blind obedience to G-d is not a Jewish value. You’re supposed to use your brain and apply Jewish law (commandments) in a sensible manner. Be compassionate, measured, and honor the preservation of all life even at the cost of defying G-d's commandments.

While I think that's a MUCH better view than the typical xian one, I do not see how you can get it from the story.

In the chapter before this, Abraham pleads for the lives of the people in Sodom and Gamorrah. He understands on some level that human life is worth defending. Then he turns around and is willing to kill his son out of blind faith for G-d. The test was, “Do you really have what it takes to be the patriarch of the righteous nation that I want to build up after you?” and not, “I want to see how blind your faith can be… go kill your son.”

When I present the Jewish position on things, please understand that our interpretations come down from the Talmud, which further expands on our Torah. The gentiles only took the written Hebrew bible. They didn’t take our traditions and commentary, but those traditions are also a part of the Jewish belief system. Jews maintain that the explanations in the Talmud are equally important to the Hebrew bible, and are an essential guide to understanding Torah.

At this point, I’m often asked, “What proof do you have that the Talmud wasn’t just made up to discredit Jesus?” The explanations in the Talmud are at least 2,000 years old. Jewish tradition says that the explanations regarding the Torah are as old as the Torah itself. Later explanations are as old as the later books, and it also covers the practice of Jewish law up until the exile following the fall of Jerusalem.

It’s not like the Talmud just popped into existence 2,000 years ago and the whole of Judaism unanimously said, “Yeah, man! We’ve never heard any of this, so we’re going to get behind it 100% in spite of the fact that our bible tells us over and over not to try to add to the Torah!” …As if you can 4 Jews to agree on anything, let alone millions of Jews without a trace of a single document claiming that Talmud is a forgery and not representative of Jewish ideas up until that point in time.

The +6,000 pages that make up the Talmud are very intricate and could not have been composed from the hand of just one person in an age where such an extensive writing was both expensive and extremely time consuming. A board of highly educated Rabbis in two different regions of the Middle East (independent of each other) came up with the idea of writing down the Talmud to preserve Jewish tradition and interpretation in the expectation that the Jewish exile would be so lengthy that the traditions would be lost if not recorded. Both versions of the Talmud are extremely similar, differing mainly in Jewish practice and not interpretations of holy texts. When finished, the entirety of the Jewish world approved of the text and everyone seemed to agree that the written Talmud was an acceptable rendition of everything everyone knew and understood about Judaism.
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11-03-2016, 11:27 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(11-03-2016 10:06 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(11-03-2016 08:18 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Blind obedience to G-d is not a Jewish value. You’re supposed to use your brain and apply Jewish law (commandments) in a sensible manner. Be compassionate, measured, and honor the preservation of all life even at the cost of defying G-d's commandments.

While I think that's a MUCH better view than the typical xian one, I do not see how you can get it from the story.

As an aside, my personal favorite interpretation of the story - and the only one that I think really works - appears in Dan Simmons' Hyperion, which is essentially a science fiction version of the Canterbury Tales.

One of the pilgrims is a Jewish man whose daughter is dying. His struggles to reconcile the inevitability and manner of her death with his faith always come back to the story of Abraham, and he himself finds himself questioning the story intensely, attempting to discern why God might have asked such a thing of a parent, and why Abraham might have gone along with it.

His ultimate answer, I think, is a rather compelling one. Abraham was not blindly following God's commands, and God was not testing Abraham. Rather, Abraham was testing God.

Not really relevant to the current discussion, I know, but I always liked that bit. The Hyperion Cantos was just an excellent series, and I highly recommend it to anyone with a taste for sci-fi.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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11-03-2016, 11:40 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(11-03-2016 11:00 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(11-03-2016 10:06 AM)unfogged Wrote:  While I think that's a MUCH better view than the typical xian one, I do not see how you can get it from the story.

In the chapter before this, Abraham pleads for the lives of the people in Sodom and Gamorrah. He understands on some level that human life is worth defending. Then he turns around and is willing to kill his son out of blind faith for G-d. The test was, “Do you really have what it takes to be the patriarch of the righteous nation that I want to build up after you?” and not, “I want to see how blind your faith can be… go kill your son.”

That's not the issue. The problem is that the god didn't then disown Abraham for failing the test. What was the point of the test if it didn't affect the outcome?

Quote:When I present the Jewish position on things, please understand that our interpretations come down from the Talmud, which further expands on our Torah. The gentiles only took the written Hebrew bible. They didn’t take our traditions and commentary, but those traditions are also a part of the Jewish belief system. Jews maintain that the explanations in the Talmud are equally important to the Hebrew bible, and are an essential guide to understanding Torah.

Yes, I'm aware of that. Again, while I do appreciate that the Jews typically have a better approach, and certainly a much more nuanced one, I do not understand how they reconcile the Torah and the Talmud. I think they'd have been better off to just chuck the Torah rather than develop all these convoluted excuses for how it can be interpreted as anything other than despicable.

Quote:At this point, I’m often asked, “What proof do you have that the Talmud wasn’t just made up to discredit Jesus?” The explanations in the Talmud are at least 2,000 years old. Jewish tradition says that the explanations regarding the Torah are as old as the Torah itself. Later explanations are as old as the later books, and it also covers the practice of Jewish law up until the exile following the fall of Jerusalem.

It’s not like the Talmud just popped into existence 2,000 years ago and the whole of Judaism unanimously said, “Yeah, man! We’ve never heard any of this, so we’re going to get behind it 100% in spite of the fact that our bible tells us over and over not to try to add to the Torah!” …As if you can 4 Jews to agree on anything, let alone millions of Jews without a trace of a single document claiming that Talmud is a forgery and not representative of Jewish ideas up until that point in time.

The +6,000 pages that make up the Talmud are very intricate and could not have been composed from the hand of just one person in an age where such an extensive writing was both expensive and extremely time consuming. A board of highly educated Rabbis in two different regions of the Middle East (independent of each other) came up with the idea of writing down the Talmud to preserve Jewish tradition and interpretation in the expectation that the Jewish exile would be so lengthy that the traditions would be lost if not recorded. Both versions of the Talmud are extremely similar, differing mainly in Jewish practice and not interpretations of holy texts. When finished, the entirety of the Jewish world approved of the text and everyone seemed to agree that the written Talmud was an acceptable rendition of everything everyone knew and understood about Judaism.

I'd question that "the entirety of the Jewish world approved of the text" because I doubt they (or any group) entirely agree on anything but I'm fine with the idea that the Talmud is generally, if not overwhelmingly, accepted as authoritative. The history of it I was generally aware of already although it isn't an are I've read much about as Jews aren't the problem that xians are. I have little problem with people who have a live and let live philosophy and worry more about character than belief. I like a lot of the philosophy, I just don't understand the reason for the belief.

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11-03-2016, 11:46 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(11-03-2016 11:27 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  His ultimate answer, I think, is a rather compelling one. Abraham was not blindly following God's commands, and God was not testing Abraham. Rather, Abraham was testing God.

That's a spin I hadn't heard. The twist I've sometimes heard is that god wasn't testing Abraham, he was making Abraham understand how deep his commitment to god was. God already knew that Abraham would obey even a horrific command but Abraham needed to understand that fact.

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15-03-2016, 09:39 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(09-03-2016 11:27 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(09-03-2016 10:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I don't know that we can arrive at that by deductive logic.

But I can tell you that many people, to better express love, assume roles and role play, from counselors to bosses on reality shows who pretend to be employees.

If you have a dog who is ill and the opportunity to love the dog by speaking the dog's language...

I've tried, and I've tried, but I've had trouble thinking of what a person or being can do for me beyond dying in my place. I know if you were crossing the street and I pushed you out of the way of a moving bus and died, you would assert that I gave for you the best and all that I had.

But Jesus (even assuming that he existed, and that the Gospels are not pure fiction) did not die in your place. He got on the wrong side of the Romans, and they killed him. Period. It has nothing to do with you. You are still going to have to die, like everyone else.

If God wanted you to have eternal life, he could just give you eternal life. Killing himself (or allowing us to do so) does nothing to accomplish that. As I said, it makes no sense at all.

We have different views on sin. The payment for sin is death. To give you eternal life and to give you death simultaneously are not possible. The choice is yours. The gift of God, eternal life. The price for sin, death.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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15-03-2016, 09:41 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(10-03-2016 11:37 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  
(09-03-2016 10:15 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  God planned to sacrifice Jesus before Abraham. There are pictures of this sacrifice as early as Adam and Adam's immediate family. You'll want to pray about this doctrine, since it touches who the Messiah is, and you'll want to employ logic:

Why did God command Abraham to sacrifice Issac to show how "bad" human sacrifice is?

And know, I'm not kidding you. I'm aware of the abhorrence that Jewish people have to Christian gospel concepts, but a part of my conversion process was learning how the ancient Jews were expecting a suffering servant to redeem them, and how more modern revisionist thought changed the game.

By more modern, I mean after Jesus died and rose, and the synagogues started to have tension between Messianics and Traditionalists, and Jewish thought began to counter the claims of Paul and the apostles.

Only a fool would be unaware that Christian root concepts are antithetical to modern Jewish thought, but the careful researcher will understand why most, likely hundreds of thousands or more, of the early Christians were Jewish. Additionally, a part of my conversion process was seeing how Gentiles loved and adored the Tanakh scriptures, and treated them purely as G_d's Word to mankind, while many of the Jewish people I encountered, even rabbis, were saying "No, it's not the perfect Word of God... it's more like a manual for Jewish living..."

Y'shua said if you won't trust Moishe and what Moishe wrote, you won't place your trust in Him either. It would be a strange trip for you to be curious about atheism and become a Jewish Christian instead, but God is in the business of souls, and has a keen sense of irony about His business! I wish you well in your spiritual journey.

You are a member of a religion which has appropriated the history and scripture of the parent religion and then twisted it into a new framework which claims to supplant the centuries of culture and tradition of a distinct group of people, and as a dutiful observer of this insurgent sect, you possess the gall to speak for how Jews interpret their own writings despite being outclassed in your own knowledge of their literature.

You deserve every ounce of ire cast in your direction.

Unfortunate. My stance agrees with that on most doctrines of most Messianic Jews. Do Messianic Jews, if they disagree with you, deserve ire or dialogue?

And do I deserve answers for topics under discussion? Or is your preference, rather than engaging with the claims of Messiah Y'shua, to say, "You dare to tell Jewish people how to think about the Old Testament? You deserve all the ire you receive from atheists."

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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15-03-2016, 09:45 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(11-03-2016 08:18 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(09-03-2016 10:15 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  God planned to sacrifice Jesus before Abraham. There are pictures of this sacrifice as early as Adam and Adam's immediate family. You'll want to pray about this doctrine, since it touches who the Messiah is, and you'll want to employ logic:
Why did God command Abraham to sacrifice Issac to show how "bad" human sacrifice is?

It might be relevant to mention here that Abraham failed the test that G-d issued. He was intended to challenge G-d’s command, and he was given until the last second to ask the question, “What the hell am I doing?!” It was his blind obedience to G-d that prevented him from seeing clearly.

Blind obedience to G-d is not a Jewish value. You’re supposed to use your brain and apply Jewish law (commandments) in a sensible manner. Be compassionate, measured, and honor the preservation of all life even at the cost of defying G-d's commandments.

(09-03-2016 10:15 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  [Regarding human sacrifice] ...I'm aware of the abhorrence that Jewish people have to Christian gospel concepts, but a part of my conversion process was learning how the ancient Jews were expecting a suffering servant to redeem them, and how more modern revisionist thought changed the game.

By more modern, I mean after Jesus died and rose, and the synagogues started to have tension between Messianics and Traditionalists, and Jewish thought began to counter the claims of Paul and the apostles.

This is where we have a disagreement. Jews did not begin to counter Paul and the apostles. Jewish thought, by its nature, always was in discord with Christianity. The evidence is on our side because the NT literally mistranslated, misquoted, and in one case, even made up a quote from the Hebrew bible. This expectation that we “should have recognized” Jesus as the messiah is anti-Jewish propaganda created by Christians to discredit Jewish ideas which conflicted with their world view, and their later grip on control over the people.

The subject of human sacrifice was well established in the Hebrew bible. This didn’t pop up after Jesus died in some lame attempt to discredit him; it’s documented all over the Hebrew Bible and the message is pretty clear even if you’re not familiar with Talmudic explanations.

We are not, and have never been, looking for a “suffering servant” in the sense that Christians think. Messiah ben Joseph will serve as a wake-up call for the Jewish people, and by virtue of the fact that we are having this discussion, Jesus has clearly has not fulfilled that role.

(09-03-2016 10:15 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Only a fool would be unaware that Christian root concepts are antithetical to modern Jewish thought, but the careful researcher will understand why most, likely hundreds of thousands or more, of the early Christians were Jewish. Additionally, a part of my conversion process was seeing how Gentiles loved and adored the Tanakh scriptures, and treated them purely as G_d's Word to mankind, while many of the Jewish people I encountered, even rabbis, were saying "No, it's not the perfect Word of God... it's more like a manual for Jewish living..."

The early Christians were Jewish. I don’t think anyone disputes that. But Paul was having trouble selling his religion to Jews, so he opened the doors to gentiles. He did away with the Mosaic law in an effort to make his new religion more appealing to the Roman gentiles he was proselytizing to. It can be very difficult to convince an adult male to cut off part of his penis if he’s not even from a culture that values such tradition!

I’m not disputing that Christians love the Old Testament as translated by their own people. I’m disputing that they have any idea how to read the real book, or that they even realize that their translations are wrong.

The Jewish scriptures are a manual for living. I can be quoted having said that on this forum a few times. It’s not a story of creation. It’s not a story about floods. It’s not even a story about the messiah, though the later books do address that. No, this is a book about how Jews are supposed to live their lives. It expands on every screw up to serve as a warning of what not to do. Take off your Christian glasses and read it again. The message is painfully clear.

(09-03-2016 10:15 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  …a part of my conversion process…

What is your original religion? Are you from a Jewish background by any chance?

There are canards in your post. As I wrote, ancient Jewish thought was, in part, focused on a Messiah who would suffer for sin. I'm aware that modern Jewish thought differs.

Also, you wrote that Paul "was having trouble selling to Jews, therefore, he went to Gentiles." Thousands of Jews came to believe via Paul's ministry. The issue was Paul kept his love for his people:

"I magnify my ministry if somehow I move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them."

This statement aligns with the prophecies of Tanakh that the Jewish people would come to wonder at what was occurring with the Gentiles, and with prophecies that the Jewish Messiah would be worshipped worldwide.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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15-03-2016, 09:48 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(15-03-2016 09:39 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(09-03-2016 11:27 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  But Jesus (even assuming that he existed, and that the Gospels are not pure fiction) did not die in your place. He got on the wrong side of the Romans, and they killed him. Period. It has nothing to do with you. You are still going to have to die, like everyone else.

If God wanted you to have eternal life, he could just give you eternal life. Killing himself (or allowing us to do so) does nothing to accomplish that. As I said, it makes no sense at all.

We have different views on sin. The payment for sin is death. To give you eternal life and to give you death simultaneously are not possible. The choice is yours. The gift of God, eternal life. The price for sin, death.

I guess that is a different view, what the difference between satan's defiance and sin?

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15-03-2016, 09:51 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(15-03-2016 09:45 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(11-03-2016 08:18 AM)Aliza Wrote:  It might be relevant to mention here that Abraham failed the test that G-d issued. He was intended to challenge G-d’s command, and he was given until the last second to ask the question, “What the hell am I doing?!” It was his blind obedience to G-d that prevented him from seeing clearly.

Blind obedience to G-d is not a Jewish value. You’re supposed to use your brain and apply Jewish law (commandments) in a sensible manner. Be compassionate, measured, and honor the preservation of all life even at the cost of defying G-d's commandments.


This is where we have a disagreement. Jews did not begin to counter Paul and the apostles. Jewish thought, by its nature, always was in discord with Christianity. The evidence is on our side because the NT literally mistranslated, misquoted, and in one case, even made up a quote from the Hebrew bible. This expectation that we “should have recognized” Jesus as the messiah is anti-Jewish propaganda created by Christians to discredit Jewish ideas which conflicted with their world view, and their later grip on control over the people.

The subject of human sacrifice was well established in the Hebrew bible. This didn’t pop up after Jesus died in some lame attempt to discredit him; it’s documented all over the Hebrew Bible and the message is pretty clear even if you’re not familiar with Talmudic explanations.

We are not, and have never been, looking for a “suffering servant” in the sense that Christians think. Messiah ben Joseph will serve as a wake-up call for the Jewish people, and by virtue of the fact that we are having this discussion, Jesus has clearly has not fulfilled that role.


The early Christians were Jewish. I don’t think anyone disputes that. But Paul was having trouble selling his religion to Jews, so he opened the doors to gentiles. He did away with the Mosaic law in an effort to make his new religion more appealing to the Roman gentiles he was proselytizing to. It can be very difficult to convince an adult male to cut off part of his penis if he’s not even from a culture that values such tradition!

I’m not disputing that Christians love the Old Testament as translated by their own people. I’m disputing that they have any idea how to read the real book, or that they even realize that their translations are wrong.

The Jewish scriptures are a manual for living. I can be quoted having said that on this forum a few times. It’s not a story of creation. It’s not a story about floods. It’s not even a story about the messiah, though the later books do address that. No, this is a book about how Jews are supposed to live their lives. It expands on every screw up to serve as a warning of what not to do. Take off your Christian glasses and read it again. The message is painfully clear.


What is your original religion? Are you from a Jewish background by any chance?

There are canards in your post. As I wrote, ancient Jewish thought was, in part, focused on a Messiah who would suffer for sin. I'm aware that modern Jewish thought differs.

Also, you wrote that Paul "was having trouble selling to Jews, therefore, he went to Gentiles." Thousands of Jews came to believe via Paul's ministry. The issue was Paul kept his love for his people:

"I magnify my ministry if somehow I move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them."

This statement aligns with the prophecies of Tanakh that the Jewish people would come to wonder at what was occurring with the Gentiles, and with prophecies that the Jewish Messiah would be worshipped worldwide.

I know Paul loved the Jews... he wanted to proselytize to them first.

Thousands out of millions is not exactly a successful track record, and he didn't manage to convert anyone noteworthy to vouch for his interpretations of Torah.

I'll consider that maybe Jews were looking for a messiah to suffer. Who are these Jews that held this view? What part of the Tanakh do they use to form this view? I'd be willing and interested to research their writings and give it some consideration.
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