Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
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15-03-2016, 10:23 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(15-03-2016 09:51 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 09:45 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  There are canards in your post. As I wrote, ancient Jewish thought was, in part, focused on a Messiah who would suffer for sin. I'm aware that modern Jewish thought differs.

Also, you wrote that Paul "was having trouble selling to Jews, therefore, he went to Gentiles." Thousands of Jews came to believe via Paul's ministry. The issue was Paul kept his love for his people:

"I magnify my ministry if somehow I move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them."

This statement aligns with the prophecies of Tanakh that the Jewish people would come to wonder at what was occurring with the Gentiles, and with prophecies that the Jewish Messiah would be worshipped worldwide.

I know Paul loved the Jews... he wanted to proselytize to them first.

Thousands out of millions is not exactly a successful track record, and he didn't manage to convert anyone noteworthy to vouch for his interpretations of Torah.

I'll consider that maybe Jews were looking for a messiah to suffer. Who are these Jews that held this view? What part of the Tanakh do they use to form this view? I'd be willing and interested to research their writings and give it some consideration.

Jews that were swayed by the recent tale of Simon of Peraea the failed messiah who also had suffered or other legends of the time.

You shouldn't disway the mindset of the era in effort to just focus on what people may of connected directly to the text at the time. It's not like societies were so perfect to texts then, they were still swayed by fads or cultural shifts too.

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15-03-2016, 10:25 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(15-03-2016 09:39 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(09-03-2016 11:27 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  But Jesus (even assuming that he existed, and that the Gospels are not pure fiction) did not die in your place. He got on the wrong side of the Romans, and they killed him. Period. It has nothing to do with you. You are still going to have to die, like everyone else.

If God wanted you to have eternal life, he could just give you eternal life. Killing himself (or allowing us to do so) does nothing to accomplish that. As I said, it makes no sense at all.

We have different views on sin. The payment for sin is death. To give you eternal life and to give you death simultaneously are not possible. The choice is yours. The gift of God, eternal life. The price for sin, death.

That's gobbledygook. But even if I were to grant the truth of it, how does God becoming human and allowing humans to kill him (a much worse crime than anything Adam and Eve did) get humans off the hook? It makes no sense at all. No-one but me can atone for my sins.

"You did all these bad things, and you deserve to be punished. But I'll tell you what -- do another really really bad thing -- and do it to me -- and I'll let you off the hook." These are the words of a lunatic, not a god. Your calculus of sin and atonement is absolutely illogical.
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15-03-2016, 10:54 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(15-03-2016 10:23 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 09:51 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I know Paul loved the Jews... he wanted to proselytize to them first.

Thousands out of millions is not exactly a successful track record, and he didn't manage to convert anyone noteworthy to vouch for his interpretations of Torah.

I'll consider that maybe Jews were looking for a messiah to suffer. Who are these Jews that held this view? What part of the Tanakh do they use to form this view? I'd be willing and interested to research their writings and give it some consideration.

Jews that were swayed by the recent tale of Simon of Peraea the failed messiah who also had suffered or other legends of the time.

You shouldn't disway the mindset of the era in effort to just focus on what people may of connected directly to the text at the time. It's not like societies were so perfect to texts then, they were still swayed by fads or cultural shifts too.

I didn't know who Simon of Peraea was until I just googled it. We've had many false messiahs, and during Jesus's time, there were a handful of messianic hopefuls. Expectations were high in that era so people were really looking for the messiah to come.

The most recently failed messiah had a huuuuge following, and he passed away in 1994. He didn't suffer, though. Not one bit. Smile

I'm sure Q has a resource at his fingertips that will knock my socks off. He'll probably show me that someone like Gamaliel (who Paul claims to have been a follower of) recorded that mainstream Judaism at the time were expecting the messiah to suffer. (But he better not come to me with Isaiah 53 Dodgy )
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15-03-2016, 10:57 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
Quote:The payment for sin is death.
No need to be euphemistic. The punishment for sin is .....
Is it death? I dont think anyone ever died for a sin. I sinned alot, and still am alive. Afaik the punishment for sin is eternal damnation.
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15-03-2016, 12:08 PM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2016 03:10 PM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(15-03-2016 09:41 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Unfortunate. My stance agrees with that on most doctrines of most Messianic Jews. Do Messianic Jews, if they disagree with you, deserve ire or dialogue?

Messianic Jews and Jews who believe in a Messiah are two different crowds. By, saying your views align with Messianic Jews, you have not demonstrated how Messianic Jews are actually properly observing the messianic criteria as established in Hebrew scripture, which Aliza has already pointed out to you as not having been met by Jesus. Obviously your views would be in step with the beliefs of Messianic Jews, those are converts, but suffice to say, your views do not actually mesh with the broader group of Jews because they do not consider Jesus to have met the criteria of the Messiah since he isn't considered to be from the Davidic line and the widely held Christian belief of Jesus as the literal human form of god himself is anathema to Jewish doctrine, which strongly condemns idol worship. Messianic Jews, as far as the Jewish community is concerned, aren't practicing Judaism as outlined in the Tanakh. Whether the Jews harbor ire for their lost tribe members depends on whether or not they view them as handymen for Christianity or victims of their own ignorance, but the animosity for those who swindle them is most certainly a naturally derived result.

Quote:And do I deserve answers for topics under discussion? Or is your preference, rather than engaging with the claims of Messiah Y'shua, to say, "You dare to tell Jewish people how to think about the Old Testament? You deserve all the ire you receive from atheists."

Why Jews harbor resentment for your brand of proselytizing I already explained above, atheists abhor your pulpit preaching for much the same reason they loathe all other apologists; you are here to broadcast your message like a net in hopes of snagging some fish. You are not interested in discussion or a mutual exchange of ideas, but are rather here with aspirations of flipping the directional flow of each conversation into a funnel of conversion to your belief sets. You possess no interest in why we are who we are or why we hold the positions we do, just what you can do to best peddle your product.

And anybody with any shred of intellectual integrity would disavow your style of debate since you possess far too conflated a sense of worth for your own opinions considering how outclassed you are by others in particular fields of knowledge (in this case the grasp on Hebrew scripture, which Aliza is quite apparently far better learned on). You are a poster child for the Dunning-Krueger effect.

As for whether you deserve answers to topics under discussion, I would be inclined to affirm, but considering your continued inability to properly internalize any answer that contradicts your viewpoints, I'm not really sure you do anymore, it would just be wasted effort after all.

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16-03-2016, 08:48 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(15-03-2016 09:51 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 09:45 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  There are canards in your post. As I wrote, ancient Jewish thought was, in part, focused on a Messiah who would suffer for sin. I'm aware that modern Jewish thought differs.

Also, you wrote that Paul "was having trouble selling to Jews, therefore, he went to Gentiles." Thousands of Jews came to believe via Paul's ministry. The issue was Paul kept his love for his people:

"I magnify my ministry if somehow I move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them."

This statement aligns with the prophecies of Tanakh that the Jewish people would come to wonder at what was occurring with the Gentiles, and with prophecies that the Jewish Messiah would be worshipped worldwide.

I know Paul loved the Jews... he wanted to proselytize to them first.

Thousands out of millions is not exactly a successful track record, and he didn't manage to convert anyone noteworthy to vouch for his interpretations of Torah.

I'll consider that maybe Jews were looking for a messiah to suffer. Who are these Jews that held this view? What part of the Tanakh do they use to form this view? I'd be willing and interested to research their writings and give it some consideration.

Some estimates go into the many hundreds of thousands out of millions.

We can start by looking carefully at Isaiah 52-53. If we can find the Messiah in Tanakh is Y'shua, it should not matter to you whether or not certain (any!) other Jews believed, right?

I trusted Jesus for salvation because after reading in both testaments and doing some explorations outside the Bible, I realized Jesus spoke truth, and to deny Him would be to deny my conscience and rationalist mind.

Thanks.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-03-2016, 08:50 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(15-03-2016 10:25 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 09:39 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  We have different views on sin. The payment for sin is death. To give you eternal life and to give you death simultaneously are not possible. The choice is yours. The gift of God, eternal life. The price for sin, death.

That's gobbledygook. But even if I were to grant the truth of it, how does God becoming human and allowing humans to kill him (a much worse crime than anything Adam and Eve did) get humans off the hook? It makes no sense at all. No-one but me can atone for my sins.

"You did all these bad things, and you deserve to be punished. But I'll tell you what -- do another really really bad thing -- and do it to me -- and I'll let you off the hook." These are the words of a lunatic, not a god. Your calculus of sin and atonement is absolutely illogical.

1. How do you know you can atone--to God--not people--for your own sin?

2. Do you misunderstand that Jesus being sinless was able to atone? He didn't die for His sin, He died for yours and mine.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-03-2016, 08:53 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(15-03-2016 10:54 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 10:23 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Jews that were swayed by the recent tale of Simon of Peraea the failed messiah who also had suffered or other legends of the time.

You shouldn't disway the mindset of the era in effort to just focus on what people may of connected directly to the text at the time. It's not like societies were so perfect to texts then, they were still swayed by fads or cultural shifts too.

I didn't know who Simon of Peraea was until I just googled it. We've had many false messiahs, and during Jesus's time, there were a handful of messianic hopefuls. Expectations were high in that era so people were really looking for the messiah to come.

The most recently failed messiah had a huuuuge following, and he passed away in 1994. He didn't suffer, though. Not one bit. Smile

I'm sure Q has a resource at his fingertips that will knock my socks off. He'll probably show me that someone like Gamaliel (who Paul claims to have been a follower of) recorded that mainstream Judaism at the time were expecting the messiah to suffer. (But he better not come to me with Isaiah 53 Dodgy )

I see this note now. Good news! I started, wisely, with Isaiah 52. I hear a lot of anti-Christian apologetics about Is 53. 52 is a lot harder to "duck".

Side question--have you noticed liturgical readings skip not only Is 53 but the suffering servant passage of 52?!

Start here, perhaps:

Behold, My servant will prosper,
He will be high and lifted up and greatly exalted.
Just as many were astonished at you, My people,
So His appearance was marred more than any man
And His form more than the sons of men.
Thus He will sprinkle many nations,
Kings will shut their mouths on account of Him;
For what had not been told them they will see,
And what they had not heard they will understand.

This has to be an individual and not Israel. Otherwise you have:

Just as many were astonished at you, Israel,
So Israel's appearance was marred more than any Israel.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-03-2016, 08:54 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(15-03-2016 10:57 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
Quote:The payment for sin is death.
No need to be euphemistic. The punishment for sin is .....
Is it death? I dont think anyone ever died for a sin. I sinned alot, and still am alive. Afaik the punishment for sin is eternal damnation.

No, the punishment for sin in the Bible is not death. Only certain laws broken lead to death, just as certain sins lead to death.

The payment for any sin is death. That's a different stance.

I've sinned a lot, too. Am I more likely or less likely to die quickly, however, if I do certain sins? Is drinking and driving a sin? Does it lead to death? We could name other examples...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-03-2016, 09:03 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(16-03-2016 08:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 10:54 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I didn't know who Simon of Peraea was until I just googled it. We've had many false messiahs, and during Jesus's time, there were a handful of messianic hopefuls. Expectations were high in that era so people were really looking for the messiah to come.

The most recently failed messiah had a huuuuge following, and he passed away in 1994. He didn't suffer, though. Not one bit. Smile

I'm sure Q has a resource at his fingertips that will knock my socks off. He'll probably show me that someone like Gamaliel (who Paul claims to have been a follower of) recorded that mainstream Judaism at the time were expecting the messiah to suffer. (But he better not come to me with Isaiah 53 Dodgy )

I see this note now. Good news! I started, wisely, with Isaiah 52. I hear a lot of anti-Christian apologetics about Is 53. 52 is a lot harder to "duck".

Side question--have you noticed liturgical readings skip not only Is 53 but the suffering servant passage of 52?!

Start here, perhaps:

Behold, My servant will prosper,
He will be high and lifted up and greatly exalted.
Just as many were astonished at you, My people,
So His appearance was marred more than any man
And His form more than the sons of men.
Thus He will sprinkle many nations,
Kings will shut their mouths on account of Him;
For what had not been told them they will see,
And what they had not heard they will understand.

This has to be an individual and not Israel. Otherwise you have:

Just as many were astonished at you, Israel,
So Israel's appearance was marred more than any Israel.

I would recommend that if you're going to try using the servant songs as your proof that you go ahead and start your research in chapter 40 where the songs begin. Get rid of all chapter breaks and just consider ch 40 to the end as a complete, uninterrupted thought.
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