Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
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16-03-2016, 09:16 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(16-03-2016 08:50 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 10:25 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  That's gobbledygook. But even if I were to grant the truth of it, how does God becoming human and allowing humans to kill him (a much worse crime than anything Adam and Eve did) get humans off the hook? It makes no sense at all. No-one but me can atone for my sins.

"You did all these bad things, and you deserve to be punished. But I'll tell you what -- do another really really bad thing -- and do it to me -- and I'll let you off the hook." These are the words of a lunatic, not a god. Your calculus of sin and atonement is absolutely illogical.

1. How do you know you can atone--to God--not people--for your own sin?

Ignoring for the moment the utter lack of evidence for God's existence, I don't know that I can atone to God for my sins against him. Maybe it's beyond my ability to do so. But then it can't be done at all, because it's utterly illogical for anyone else to do it.

Quote:2. Do you misunderstand that Jesus being sinless was able to atone? He didn't die for His sin, He died for yours and mine.

Jesus may have had some superhuman ability to atone for his own sins (and if he didn't have any, it's very silly for him to do any atoning at all), but it's logically impossible for him to atone for yours or mine. Why is that so hard for you to understand? If he thought he was dying "for my sins", he was an idiot. And if you think he was doing that, you're an idiot too.

The whole concept of substitutionary atonement is nonsense. Period.
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16-03-2016, 11:15 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(16-03-2016 08:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 10:54 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I didn't know who Simon of Peraea was until I just googled it. We've had many false messiahs, and during Jesus's time, there were a handful of messianic hopefuls. Expectations were high in that era so people were really looking for the messiah to come.

The most recently failed messiah had a huuuuge following, and he passed away in 1994. He didn't suffer, though. Not one bit. Smile

I'm sure Q has a resource at his fingertips that will knock my socks off. He'll probably show me that someone like Gamaliel (who Paul claims to have been a follower of) recorded that mainstream Judaism at the time were expecting the messiah to suffer. (But he better not come to me with Isaiah 53 Dodgy )

I see this note now. Good news! I started, wisely, with Isaiah 52. I hear a lot of anti-Christian apologetics about Is 53. 52 is a lot harder to "duck".

Side question--have you noticed liturgical readings skip not only Is 53 but the suffering servant passage of 52?!

Start here, perhaps:

Behold, My servant will prosper,
He will be high and lifted up and greatly exalted.
Just as many were astonished at you, My people,
So His appearance was marred more than any man
And His form more than the sons of men.
Thus He will sprinkle many nations,
Kings will shut their mouths on account of Him;
For what had not been told them they will see,
And what they had not heard they will understand.

This has to be an individual and not Israel. Otherwise you have:

Just as many were astonished at you, Israel,
So Israel's appearance was marred more than any Israel.

Reads just like most abstract poems. You can interpret it in many ways and not something seemingly thought to have such direct singular meaning ever.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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16-03-2016, 11:55 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(16-03-2016 11:15 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(16-03-2016 08:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I see this note now. Good news! I started, wisely, with Isaiah 52. I hear a lot of anti-Christian apologetics about Is 53. 52 is a lot harder to "duck".

Side question--have you noticed liturgical readings skip not only Is 53 but the suffering servant passage of 52?!

Start here, perhaps:

Behold, My servant will prosper,
He will be high and lifted up and greatly exalted.
Just as many were astonished at you, My people,
So His appearance was marred more than any man
And His form more than the sons of men.
Thus He will sprinkle many nations,
Kings will shut their mouths on account of Him;
For what had not been told them they will see,
And what they had not heard they will understand.

This has to be an individual and not Israel. Otherwise you have:

Just as many were astonished at you, Israel,
So Israel's appearance was marred more than any Israel.

Reads just like most abstract poems. You can interpret it in many ways and not something seemingly thought to have such direct singular meaning ever.

Meh. If you read the suffering servant songs since the first one , Israel is explicitly identified as the suffering servant many times. Christards like Qunt like to use mistranslated texts and out of the context to push their bullshit agenda.

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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16-03-2016, 03:06 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(16-03-2016 08:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(15-03-2016 10:54 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I didn't know who Simon of Peraea was until I just googled it. We've had many false messiahs, and during Jesus's time, there were a handful of messianic hopefuls. Expectations were high in that era so people were really looking for the messiah to come.

The most recently failed messiah had a huuuuge following, and he passed away in 1994. He didn't suffer, though. Not one bit. Smile

I'm sure Q has a resource at his fingertips that will knock my socks off. He'll probably show me that someone like Gamaliel (who Paul claims to have been a follower of) recorded that mainstream Judaism at the time were expecting the messiah to suffer. (But he better not come to me with Isaiah 53 Dodgy )

I see this note now. Good news! I started, wisely, with Isaiah 52. I hear a lot of anti-Christian apologetics about Is 53. 52 is a lot harder to "duck".

Side question--have you noticed liturgical readings skip not only Is 53 but the suffering servant passage of 52?!

Start here, perhaps:

Behold, My servant will prosper,
He will be high and lifted up and greatly exalted.
Just as many were astonished at you, My people,
So His appearance was marred more than any man
And His form more than the sons of men.
Thus He will sprinkle many nations,
Kings will shut their mouths on account of Him;
For what had not been told them they will see,
And what they had not heard they will understand.

This has to be an individual and not Israel. Otherwise you have:

Just as many were astonished at you, Israel,
So Israel's appearance was marred more than any Israel.
I'm going to break my reply into three posts because I know my stuff can just go on and on and on.

Post 1: Identifying the servant
Post 2: Adjusting the translation
Post 3: Inserting Israel into the text


Prior to chapter 53, Isaiah directly identifies at least ten times who the servant is that he’s writing about.

41:8 But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me, 41:9 Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"; I chose you and I did not despise you

43:10 "You are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and My servant whom I chose," in order that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me no god was formed and after Me none shall be.

Q, STOP HERE! THIS PART IS REALLY IMPORTANT! Did you notice in the above passage that G-d is talking about his servant in the plural? The servant collective are the witnesses. Israel is a collective of people referred to as a singular body. Think of it being like the Q. The “Q” are a collection of Q individuals referred to as just the “Q”.

Now we know that the servant can be referred to as a plural group of people.

44:1 And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen. 44:2 So said the Lord your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen.

44:21 Remember these, O Jacob; and Israel, for you are My servant; I formed you that you be a servant to Me, Israel, do not forget Me.

45:4 For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name; I surnamed you, yet you have not known Me.

48:20 Leave Babylon, flee from the Chaldeans; with a voice of singing declare, tell this, publicize it to the end of the earth; say, "The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob."

49:3 And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."

I’m so glad that Isaiah thought to identify the servant so many times, otherwise there might be confusion about who the servant is.

And now that we know exactly who the servant is, let’s take a look at your passage and see if the Jewish people fit into the passage you posted. Smile

They fit in perfectly and Jesus doesn’t!
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16-03-2016, 03:26 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(16-03-2016 09:16 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(16-03-2016 08:50 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. How do you know you can atone--to God--not people--for your own sin?

Ignoring for the moment the utter lack of evidence for God's existence, I don't know that I can atone to God for my sins against him. Maybe it's beyond my ability to do so. But then it can't be done at all, because it's utterly illogical for anyone else to do it.

Quote:2. Do you misunderstand that Jesus being sinless was able to atone? He didn't die for His sin, He died for yours and mine.

Jesus may have had some superhuman ability to atone for his own sins (and if he didn't have any, it's very silly for him to do any atoning at all), but it's logically impossible for him to atone for yours or mine. Why is that so hard for you to understand? If he thought he was dying "for my sins", he was an idiot. And if you think he was doing that, you're an idiot too.

The whole concept of substitutionary atonement is nonsense. Period.

Yes, and when you bite down on that piece of the body of Christ why does it both taste and look like a cracker?
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16-03-2016, 03:31 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
Post 1: Identifying the servant
Post 2: Adjusting the translation
Post 3: Inserting Israel into the text

I’d love to start here, but I have to make a few edits to your translation. Then we can continue.

Behold, My servant will prosper,
He he Oh, okay. I see what they did there. They capitalized “him” to kind of plant an expectation in people’s minds. It’s not native to the text, so I’m nixing it. will be high and lifted up and greatly exalted.
Just as many were astonished at you, My people,
So His his Angry Another instance of inappropriate capitalization appearance was marred more than any man
And His his Another!? Angry form more than the sons of men people.
Thus He he OMG. Angry This is terrible. will sprinkle This doesn't mean "sprinkle" like sprinkling the blood of Jesus. I'm sure you wouldn't be so silly as to take it like that, anyway. Let’s just stick with the more popular translation: cast down many nations,
Kings will shut their mouths on account Him him Angry Angry Angry Angry STOP IT! For what had not been told them they will see,
And what they had not heard they will understand.

In fact, let’s just get a nice clean translation with no problems that need to be fixed. I'm using Judaica Press

13 Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.
יג הִנֵּה יַשְׂכִּיל עַבְדִּי יָרוּם וְנִשָּׂא וְגָבַהּ מְאֹד:


14 As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"
יד כַּאֲשֶׁר שָׁמְמוּ עָלֶיךָ רַבִּים כֵּן מִשְׁחַת מֵאִישׁ
מַרְאֵהוּ וְתֹאֲרוֹ מִבְּנֵי אָדָם:


15 So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.
טוכֵּן יַזֶּה גּוֹיִם רַבִּים עָלָיו יִקְפְּצוּ מְלָכִים פִּיהֶם
כִּי אֲשֶׁר לֹא סֻפַּר לָהֶם רָאוּ וַאֲשֶׁר לֹא שָׁמְעוּ
הִתְבּוֹנָנוּ:
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16-03-2016, 03:32 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(16-03-2016 03:26 PM)DerFish Wrote:  
(16-03-2016 09:16 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Ignoring for the moment the utter lack of evidence for God's existence, I don't know that I can atone to God for my sins against him. Maybe it's beyond my ability to do so. But then it can't be done at all, because it's utterly illogical for anyone else to do it.


Jesus may have had some superhuman ability to atone for his own sins (and if he didn't have any, it's very silly for him to do any atoning at all), but it's logically impossible for him to atone for yours or mine. Why is that so hard for you to understand? If he thought he was dying "for my sins", he was an idiot. And if you think he was doing that, you're an idiot too.

The whole concept of substitutionary atonement is nonsense. Period.

Yes, and when you bite down on that piece of the body of Christ why does it both taste and look like a cracker?

You're not supposed to bite it!

you just let it sit on your tongue like a mint meltaway... jesus should of been made of mint chocolate candies really.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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16-03-2016, 04:07 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
Post 1: Identifying the servant
Post 2: Adjusting the translation

Post 3: Inserting Israel into the text

13 Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.

Here, we’re learning that the servant (Israel) will be successful. Are the Jewish people successful? Let’s take a look:

Jewish Nobel Laureates

Israeli Inventions

"Jewish people are overrepresented in fields as diverse as politics, science, the wealthiest americans, art, etc. compared to their population size. Jewish people are only 2% of Americans but they make up about 10% of senators, about 25% of nobel prize winners and fields medal winners, 20% of the wealthiest 400 americans, etc."
Full article here.

"Jews are the highest-earning religious group in the United States, with 46 percent of the working population earning a six-digit figure every year, according to a study released this week. In terms of annual earnings, the only other group to even come close to the average Jewish income was the Hindus, with 43 percent earning over $100,000." Full article here.


14 As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"


[Image: Jesus.jpg]
[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRLa-ss5AdzZYTUe-AnifP...O2WM2Pt6ZQ]
Oy gevalt! Such a punim!

… I mean ugly! Disgusting! Marred! How can you even look at that guy he’s so hideous!

I wonder, though, how Jews have been characterized? Let’s take a peek!

[Image: 51GOZ58pcKL._SX316_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg]
[Image: satan-mask.jpg]
[Image: 6a00d8341f056353ef019aff9551af970c-pi]

Not convincing enough? How about this one:

[Image: Oelberg-Starvation1-copy-300x199.jpg]
Does this person look human to you?

15 So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.

It sounds to me like these nations are going to be astonished about the servant. When the servant is revealed, the nations are going to so shocked, that they'll be speechless. (Nations, by the way, are what the bible calls Gentiles.)

Are the Gentile leaders going to be shocked to learn that Jesus is the true identity of the servant? Are the Gentile leaders going to shut their mouths when they discover that all along, it was Jesus, who is exactly who they were expecting? Who would have guessed such an absurd thing?!

Is this guy going to be surprised?

[Image: _74385688_021987081-1.jpg]
(It’s David Cameron. ...He's the PM of Great Britain.)

You think this guy will be surprised to learn that Jesus is the servant?

[Image: _84659470_kipu.jpg]

How about this guy?

[Image: Obama-church.jpg]

Even this guy thinks that Jesus is the servant.

[Image: 150624-iran-khamenei-mn-0820_cf7cefe17db...0-1000.jpg]

How are all these leaders going to be totally shocked to learn that Jesus is the suffering servant if they already believe it?!

You know what might surprise them? Learning that the Jews are the servant, exactly as they text says but totally contrary to the way that their pastors taught them. That’ll be a huge shocker. I suspect you’ll be shocked too.
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16-03-2016, 04:12 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(16-03-2016 08:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Side question--have you noticed liturgical readings skip not only Is 53 but the suffering servant passage of 52?!

Well aware. Did you just learn that?

The answer to this question can be easily Googled and I really can't do it better justice than Rabbi Singer. http://outreachjudaism.org/are-the-jews-...something/

"This well-worn claim that the Jews have deliberately removed Isaiah 53 from the Haftorah because rabbis are “so scared” [Oooohhhh so scared!] that their worshipers might bolt from their synagogues for the local baptism pool upon hearing this chapter read aloud from the pulpit is a popular argument used by missionaries to sustain their christological interpretation of Isaiah 53.

This contention, however, is so devoid of merit that I often find it difficult to know where to begin in my response."


You can click on the link to read the rest. In short, your handlers have given you a pretty ridiculous, bogus counter attack that is very VERY easily dismantled. I expect more from them, Q!
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16-03-2016, 06:18 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
The Q got served by Aliza.

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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