Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 1 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
17-03-2016, 05:22 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(16-03-2016 04:12 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(16-03-2016 08:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Side question--have you noticed liturgical readings skip not only Is 53 but the suffering servant passage of 52?!

Well aware. Did you just learn that?

The answer to this question can be easily Googled and I really can't do it better justice than Rabbi Singer. http://outreachjudaism.org/are-the-jews-...something/

"This well-worn claim that the Jews have deliberately removed Isaiah 53 from the Haftorah because rabbis are “so scared” [Oooohhhh so scared!] that their worshipers might bolt from their synagogues for the local baptism pool upon hearing this chapter read aloud from the pulpit is a popular argument used by missionaries to sustain their christological interpretation of Isaiah 53.

This contention, however, is so devoid of merit that I often find it difficult to know where to begin in my response."


You can click on the link to read the rest. In short, your handlers have given you a pretty ridiculous, bogus counter attack that is very VERY easily dismantled. I expect more from them, Q!

Now hold on there Aliza, Job is a metaphor for Jesus, he was pleasing to god, then god allowed him to suffer, then god restored him. Don't you see it?

Also, god turned the Nile to blood in Exodus and then purified it. Blood- purify, this is an obvious analog to atonement.

Take Cain and Abel, Abel was innocent, but was killed. Jesus!

In Daniel, there was a fourth man in the furnace that was with Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. Jesus!

In Psalms 137:9- How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock. This one is obvious, the people that offer their children upon the rock of faith, i.e. Jesus, will be blessed!

I know how to shove Jesus into everything so well, I think I'll start a religion! Or start a business manufacturing Jesus dildos!

Take that Aliza!

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like TheInquisition's post
17-03-2016, 09:16 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(17-03-2016 05:22 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(16-03-2016 04:12 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Well aware. Did you just learn that?

The answer to this question can be easily Googled and I really can't do it better justice than Rabbi Singer. http://outreachjudaism.org/are-the-jews-...something/

"This well-worn claim that the Jews have deliberately removed Isaiah 53 from the Haftorah because rabbis are “so scared” [Oooohhhh so scared!] that their worshipers might bolt from their synagogues for the local baptism pool upon hearing this chapter read aloud from the pulpit is a popular argument used by missionaries to sustain their christological interpretation of Isaiah 53.

This contention, however, is so devoid of merit that I often find it difficult to know where to begin in my response."


You can click on the link to read the rest. In short, your handlers have given you a pretty ridiculous, bogus counter attack that is very VERY easily dismantled. I expect more from them, Q!

Now hold on there Aliza, Job is a metaphor for Jesus, he was pleasing to god, then god allowed him to suffer, then god restored him. Don't you see it?

Also, god turned the Nile to blood in Exodus and then purified it. Blood- purify, this is an obvious analog to atonement.

Take Cain and Abel, Abel was innocent, but was killed. Jesus!

In Daniel, there was a fourth man in the furnace that was with Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. Jesus!

In Psalms 137:9- How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock. This one is obvious, the people that offer their children upon the rock of faith, i.e. Jesus, will be blessed!

I know how to shove Jesus into everything so well, I think I'll start a religion! Or start a business manufacturing Jesus dildos!

Take that Aliza!
Aliza got served by you ! What's happening here ? I'm confused !OhmyLaugh out load I'm convinced, I want to join your new religion.

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Leo's post
17-03-2016, 09:22 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(17-03-2016 09:16 AM)Leo Wrote:  
(17-03-2016 05:22 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Now hold on there Aliza, Job is a metaphor for Jesus, he was pleasing to god, then god allowed him to suffer, then god restored him. Don't you see it?

Also, god turned the Nile to blood in Exodus and then purified it. Blood- purify, this is an obvious analog to atonement.

Take Cain and Abel, Abel was innocent, but was killed. Jesus!

In Daniel, there was a fourth man in the furnace that was with Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. Jesus!

In Psalms 137:9- How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock. This one is obvious, the people that offer their children upon the rock of faith, i.e. Jesus, will be blessed!

I know how to shove Jesus into everything so well, I think I'll start a religion! Or start a business manufacturing Jesus dildos!

Take that Aliza!
Aliza got served by you ! What's happening here ? I'm confused !OhmyLaugh out load I'm convinced, I want to join your new religion.

Served!? Oh, no, no, no, no. I do the serving around here where the Hebrew Bible (OT) is concerned.

Inquisition.... expect my reply. Evil_monster

... actually, that is a totally inappropriate smiley given the circumstances. Never-the-less, I will still try to reply.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Aliza's post
17-03-2016, 09:38 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(17-03-2016 09:22 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(17-03-2016 09:16 AM)Leo Wrote:  Aliza got served by you ! What's happening here ? I'm confused !OhmyLaugh out load I'm convinced, I want to join your new religion.

Served!? Oh, no, no, no, no. I do the serving around here where the Hebrew Bible (OT) is concerned.

Inquisition.... expect my reply. Evil_monster

... actually, that is a totally inappropriate smiley given the circumstances. Never-the-less, I will still try to reply.

I was joking and you got Q really served in your epic post about the suffering servant.Smile thanks for that.

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Leo's post
17-03-2016, 09:39 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(17-03-2016 09:38 AM)Leo Wrote:  
(17-03-2016 09:22 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Served!? Oh, no, no, no, no. I do the serving around here where the Hebrew Bible (OT) is concerned.

Inquisition.... expect my reply. Evil_monster

... actually, that is a totally inappropriate smiley given the circumstances. Never-the-less, I will still try to reply.

I was joking and you got Q really served in your epic post about the suffering servant.Smile thanks for that.

I know, but I want to reply to Inquisition to curry favor with him so he'll send me a... uhm.... a toy. Blush
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Aliza's post
17-03-2016, 10:42 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(17-03-2016 05:22 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Now hold on there Aliza, Job is a metaphor for Jesus, he was pleasing to god, then god allowed him to suffer, then god restored him. Don't you see it?

Also, god turned the Nile to blood in Exodus and then purified it. Blood- purify, this is an obvious analog to atonement.

G-d punished the Egyptians because they were being dicks. When they stopped being dicks, the water ran clean.

The moral of the story is, don’t be a dick. Clearly, Jesus was a dick and his blood was spilled. Once he was dead, (and he wasn’t a dick anymore) the suffering ended.

(17-03-2016 05:22 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Take Cain and Abel, Abel was innocent, but was killed. Jesus!

Abel was innocent, and he still got screwed over.

The moral of the story here is that some asshole might come by to hurt you or kill you. G-d isn’t going to intervene, so watch your back. It’s true that your assailant will be punished, but YOU’RE STILL GOING TO BE DEAD!

Hey! Jesus is still dead, too! You’re right. This is just like Jesus.

Wait a minute... I just said that G-d isn't going to intervene with sins. So... the story of Jesus says that people can sin, but now they won't get punished. (Eh, that's fair)

(17-03-2016 05:22 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  In Daniel, there was a fourth man in the furnace that was with Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. Jesus!

And just like Jesus, the angel did not come out of the tomb.

(17-03-2016 05:22 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  In Psalms 137:9- How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock. This one is obvious, the people that offer their children upon the rock of faith, i.e. Jesus, will be blessed!

What’s good for the goose should be good for the gander. You bash our kids against the rock, let’s see you bash your own kids against the rock.

When you evangelize to us, it drives us nuts! Let’s see how you all like being evangelized to, Christians. Smile

(17-03-2016 05:22 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Take that Aliza!

Take that, Inquisition!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Aliza's post
18-03-2016, 08:37 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(16-03-2016 09:03 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(16-03-2016 08:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I see this note now. Good news! I started, wisely, with Isaiah 52. I hear a lot of anti-Christian apologetics about Is 53. 52 is a lot harder to "duck".

Side question--have you noticed liturgical readings skip not only Is 53 but the suffering servant passage of 52?!

Start here, perhaps:

Behold, My servant will prosper,
He will be high and lifted up and greatly exalted.
Just as many were astonished at you, My people,
So His appearance was marred more than any man
And His form more than the sons of men.
Thus He will sprinkle many nations,
Kings will shut their mouths on account of Him;
For what had not been told them they will see,
And what they had not heard they will understand.

This has to be an individual and not Israel. Otherwise you have:

Just as many were astonished at you, Israel,
So Israel's appearance was marred more than any Israel.

I would recommend that if you're going to try using the servant songs as your proof that you go ahead and start your research in chapter 40 where the songs begin. Get rid of all chapter breaks and just consider ch 40 to the end as a complete, uninterrupted thought.

I understand, but the songs include statements about God, Messiah AND Israel. In Chapter 42, we have statements about both comings of Messiah. From His first advent:

“Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen ONE in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on HIM,
and he will bring justice to the nations.
He will not shout or cry out,
or raise his voice in the streets.
A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.

...I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the GENTILES,
to OPEN EYES that are BLIND...

Etc.

However, the Jewish people do not liturgically read from 40 through 53 as one unbroken cycle, because we both know they stop in 52 and skip 53. Where in 52? Where the suffering Messiah is suffering!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2016, 08:42 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(16-03-2016 09:16 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(16-03-2016 08:50 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. How do you know you can atone--to God--not people--for your own sin?

Ignoring for the moment the utter lack of evidence for God's existence, I don't know that I can atone to God for my sins against him. Maybe it's beyond my ability to do so. But then it can't be done at all, because it's utterly illogical for anyone else to do it.

Quote:2. Do you misunderstand that Jesus being sinless was able to atone? He didn't die for His sin, He died for yours and mine.

Jesus may have had some superhuman ability to atone for his own sins (and if he didn't have any, it's very silly for him to do any atoning at all), but it's logically impossible for him to atone for yours or mine. Why is that so hard for you to understand? If he thought he was dying "for my sins", he was an idiot. And if you think he was doing that, you're an idiot too.

The whole concept of substitutionary atonement is nonsense. Period.

It's not at all illogical to atone for another. "Atone" = make amends or reparation.

Is it "totally illogical" and "nonsense" for:

* Governments to have hiring and education and assistance quotas now to make up for slavery from 150 years ago?

* Countries complicit in war crimes to pay reparations now for war crimes committed ten years ago under different country leadership?

*Etc. as you are simply taking Hitchens's famous idea and running rampant with it to say a Father who takes one for His children is being "illogical". Have you never seen a film where a kidnapper plans to execute women and children as hostages and the men (or vice versa) say, "NO! TAKE ME INSTEAD, PLEASE!"

What you and TTA members are attempting to do is cut the root away from Christianity by attaching substitutionary atonement. But to make amends FOR or make amends ON BEHALF OF or pay another's bill, etc. is legal and moral in many, many instances.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2016, 08:59 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(16-03-2016 04:12 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(16-03-2016 08:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Side question--have you noticed liturgical readings skip not only Is 53 but the suffering servant passage of 52?!

Well aware. Did you just learn that?

The answer to this question can be easily Googled and I really can't do it better justice than Rabbi Singer. http://outreachjudaism.org/are-the-jews-...something/

"This well-worn claim that the Jews have deliberately removed Isaiah 53 from the Haftorah because rabbis are “so scared” [Oooohhhh so scared!] that their worshipers might bolt from their synagogues for the local baptism pool upon hearing this chapter read aloud from the pulpit is a popular argument used by missionaries to sustain their christological interpretation of Isaiah 53.

This contention, however, is so devoid of merit that I often find it difficult to know where to begin in my response."


You can click on the link to read the rest. In short, your handlers have given you a pretty ridiculous, bogus counter attack that is very VERY easily dismantled. I expect more from them, Q!

Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high…

…Singular person. Jesus was lifted up literally in the atonement.

As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"

…Jesus was horribly disfigured in the atonement.

So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.

…Yes, this will happen in the second advent, and is ALSO seen in the first advent. Herod and Pilate were astonished at what Jesus was doing, healing and saving.

Quote: How are all these leaders going to be totally shocked to learn that Jesus is the suffering servant if they already believe it?!

The verse quoted above doesn’t say they are shocked to learn Jesus is the suffering servant, and it doesn’t even say “shocked to learn He is REALLY the suffering servant”. The verse could as easily apply to the Son of Man coming out of Heaven with thousands in His train to judge all at the end of days. (Daniel).

And as I I’ve argued elsewhere here at TTA, yes, the Jews are blessed, but have you ever critically examined Deut 28-30 with its claims that in addition to being blessed and forgiven, there will be a great diaspora and great persecution of the Jewish people in every nation where they are scattered after they reject “the prophet coming who is like Moses”?

Re: Rabbi Singer, whom you failed to explain (perhaps you found his statement re: Isaiah 53 online and did not know) is a leading anti-Christian missionary on behalf of Jews for Judaism and was friendly with/a promoter of Menachem Schneerson, an abortive candidate for Messiah:

1. Of COURSE many parts of the Tanakh, including Isaiah, aren’t Haftorah.

2. Rabbi Singer fails to notice, as did you, that it isn’t just Isaiah 53 that isn’t Haftorah. It’s Isaiah 52 WITHIN the chapter, with the portion ending EXACTLY where the singular suffering servant is, than we pick up again in Isaiah 54.

3. I’m aware that Y’shua read from Haftorah as in Luke 4 and that Haftorah predates the time of Christ. I’m also aware that many Tanakh prophecies indicate that Y’shua is hidden from His people, too. When you discover Isaiah 53, not as anti-Christian (although in many cases, well meaning and zealous) missionaries tell you what you think it should say but what it SAYS…

4. Isaiah 53 contains statements about dying and then seeing one’s descendants after. Israel may have revived a bit in modern times, but Israel never DIED and never RESURRECTED!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2016, 09:53 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(18-03-2016 08:42 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-03-2016 09:16 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Ignoring for the moment the utter lack of evidence for God's existence, I don't know that I can atone to God for my sins against him. Maybe it's beyond my ability to do so. But then it can't be done at all, because it's utterly illogical for anyone else to do it.


Jesus may have had some superhuman ability to atone for his own sins (and if he didn't have any, it's very silly for him to do any atoning at all), but it's logically impossible for him to atone for yours or mine. Why is that so hard for you to understand? If he thought he was dying "for my sins", he was an idiot. And if you think he was doing that, you're an idiot too.

The whole concept of substitutionary atonement is nonsense. Period.

It's not at all illogical to atone for another. "Atone" = make amends or reparation.

Is it "totally illogical" and "nonsense" for:

* Governments to have hiring and education and assistance quotas now to make up for slavery from 150 years ago?

* Countries complicit in war crimes to pay reparations now for war crimes committed ten years ago under different country leadership?

*Etc. as you are simply taking Hitchens's famous idea and running rampant with it to say a Father who takes one for His children is being "illogical". Have you never seen a film where a kidnapper plans to execute women and children as hostages and the men (or vice versa) say, "NO! TAKE ME INSTEAD, PLEASE!"

What you and TTA members are attempting to do is cut the root away from Christianity by attaching substitutionary atonement. But to make amends FOR or make amends ON BEHALF OF or pay another's bill, etc. is legal and moral in many, many instances.

You keep making bad analogies. None of these hypothetical cases is anything like what Jesus is said to have done. Remember that Jesus is supposed to be God. So he is sacrificing himself to himself to atone for someone else's sins against himself. Sorry, but that's nonsense. Try finding an example from real life where the victim of a crime atones to himself. Good luck.

You and your religion are both as nutty as a fruitcake.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Grasshopper's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: