Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
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18-03-2016, 05:33 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
I can't believe this is still going but I'm still reading and learning so thank you.
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20-03-2016, 10:43 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(18-03-2016 08:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  However, the Jewish people do not liturgically read from 40 through 53 as one unbroken cycle, because we both know they stop in 52 and skip 53. Where in 52? Where the suffering Messiah is suffering!

The Jews had been forbidden to study Torah, so they selected writings from the prophets that they felt mirrored the lessons taught in the Torah. The Haftorah serves a purpose. Isaiah 53 does not fulfill the Haftorah’s purpose. That’s why it’s not included. The Haftorah was arranged prior to Jesus, so I don’t know why you’re bothering with this at all.

If I was selling you a house, and I neglected to point out the mailbox (which we will assume is a perfectly normal, functioning mailbox), was I being dishonest? No, it’s just not regarded as an important feature in purchasing a house. Isaiah 53 doesn’t help the Haftorah achieve its goal. People who wanted to read it could read it at any time. The books were right there in the synagogue. -And they did read it (outside of the haftorah reading), they did discuss it, and they never saw Jesus anywhere in it.

If it was Isaiah 52 that didn’t serve the function established for the Haftorah, then the Christians would have painted Jesus all over that chapter instead and still accused us of dodging him. It doesn’t matter which chapter wasn’t included. The Christians will use anything to discredit us. (and then they wonder why we won’t convert!)

Can you give me the passages from my book where it says that G-d plans to come down to earth as a human and die for our sins, and that we’d better believe in this event otherwise we’ll burn in eternal hell? In the words of Mark Fulton, this is not rhetorical. Please actually do this for me. I don't want any peek-a-boo prophecy, either. My eternal soul is on the line here, so I want plain, unambiguous language that I can't misinterpret or misunderstand.
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20-03-2016, 04:06 PM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
Aliza please stop playing the last person to wins game with the Q. You already got Q served big time.

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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22-03-2016, 09:08 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(18-03-2016 09:53 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(18-03-2016 08:42 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It's not at all illogical to atone for another. "Atone" = make amends or reparation.

Is it "totally illogical" and "nonsense" for:

* Governments to have hiring and education and assistance quotas now to make up for slavery from 150 years ago?

* Countries complicit in war crimes to pay reparations now for war crimes committed ten years ago under different country leadership?

*Etc. as you are simply taking Hitchens's famous idea and running rampant with it to say a Father who takes one for His children is being "illogical". Have you never seen a film where a kidnapper plans to execute women and children as hostages and the men (or vice versa) say, "NO! TAKE ME INSTEAD, PLEASE!"

What you and TTA members are attempting to do is cut the root away from Christianity by attaching substitutionary atonement. But to make amends FOR or make amends ON BEHALF OF or pay another's bill, etc. is legal and moral in many, many instances.

You keep making bad analogies. None of these hypothetical cases is anything like what Jesus is said to have done. Remember that Jesus is supposed to be God. So he is sacrificing himself to himself to atone for someone else's sins against himself. Sorry, but that's nonsense. Try finding an example from real life where the victim of a crime atones to himself. Good luck.

You and your religion are both as nutty as a fruitcake.

Wait a sec--your conclusion was off point. Just before your conclusion, you wrote:

Quote:So he is sacrificing himself to himself to atone for someone else's sins against himself.

Do you really need real-life examples of where people hurt or sacrificed themselves for a crime against them, on behalf of the criminal? You know as well as I that sometimes crime victims plead for mercy for the criminals themselves to judges and juries.

I myself am a parent, and a loving parent, therefore I have had occasion to mean it when I say, "This is hurting me more than it hurts you."

Of course Jesus sacrificed Himself for crimes we committed against Him:

1. He never did wrong and needed no self-atonement.
2. Mercy, grace and love prompt His atonement for us.
3. You seem to have a problem with people who care about others enough to sacrifice themselves for the lost...?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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22-03-2016, 09:20 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(22-03-2016 09:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(18-03-2016 09:53 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  You keep making bad analogies. None of these hypothetical cases is anything like what Jesus is said to have done. Remember that Jesus is supposed to be God. So he is sacrificing himself to himself to atone for someone else's sins against himself. Sorry, but that's nonsense. Try finding an example from real life where the victim of a crime atones to himself. Good luck.

You and your religion are both as nutty as a fruitcake.

Wait a sec--your conclusion was off point. Just before your conclusion, you wrote:

Quote:So he is sacrificing himself to himself to atone for someone else's sins against himself.

Do you really need real-life examples of where people hurt or sacrificed themselves for a crime against them, on behalf of the criminal? You know as well as I that sometimes crime victims plead for mercy for the criminals themselves to judges and juries.

I myself am a parent, and a loving parent, therefore I have had occasion to mean it when I say, "This is hurting me more than it hurts you."

Of course Jesus sacrificed Himself for crimes we committed against Him:

1. He never did wrong and needed no self-atonement.
2. Mercy, grace and love prompt His atonement for us.
3. You seem to have a problem with people who care about others enough to sacrifice themselves for the lost...?

More bad analogies. Pleading for mercy for a criminal is not at all the same thing as fucking killing yourself to "atone" for the criminal's crime against yourself. Why do you refuse to see how fucking goofy that concept is? Nobody in real life has ever done such a thing, nor would anyone do such thing -- and if they did, they would rightly be judged as absolutely insane.
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22-03-2016, 09:21 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(20-03-2016 10:43 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(18-03-2016 08:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  However, the Jewish people do not liturgically read from 40 through 53 as one unbroken cycle, because we both know they stop in 52 and skip 53. Where in 52? Where the suffering Messiah is suffering!

The Jews had been forbidden to study Torah, so they selected writings from the prophets that they felt mirrored the lessons taught in the Torah. The Haftorah serves a purpose. Isaiah 53 does not fulfill the Haftorah’s purpose. That’s why it’s not included. The Haftorah was arranged prior to Jesus, so I don’t know why you’re bothering with this at all.

If I was selling you a house, and I neglected to point out the mailbox (which we will assume is a perfectly normal, functioning mailbox), was I being dishonest? No, it’s just not regarded as an important feature in purchasing a house. Isaiah 53 doesn’t help the Haftorah achieve its goal. People who wanted to read it could read it at any time. The books were right there in the synagogue. -And they did read it (outside of the haftorah reading), they did discuss it, and they never saw Jesus anywhere in it.

If it was Isaiah 52 that didn’t serve the function established for the Haftorah, then the Christians would have painted Jesus all over that chapter instead and still accused us of dodging him. It doesn’t matter which chapter wasn’t included. The Christians will use anything to discredit us. (and then they wonder why we won’t convert!)

Can you give me the passages from my book where it says that G-d plans to come down to earth as a human and die for our sins, and that we’d better believe in this event otherwise we’ll burn in eternal hell? In the words of Mark Fulton, this is not rhetorical. Please actually do this for me. I don't want any peek-a-boo prophecy, either. My eternal soul is on the line here, so I want plain, unambiguous language that I can't misinterpret or misunderstand.

I understand the Haftorah construction, process, thanks. The lessons chosen began the move away from personal atonement from God to personal atonement on one's own behalf. But this is logical, since when Torah sacrifices are halted/obstructed SOMETHING has to be done for sin.

I was trying to point you to the suffering servant passages that you feel are about the nation of Israel. If you read verses that are clearly about Y'shua (or at least an individual and not a nation) as being about a whole nation... why would you choose to understand any unambiguous prophecy?

Your eternal soul and mine are on the line, yes. I think we can find what you are seeking in Tanakh, so let's take it one piece at a time. Let's start with this, and I'll add a few notes/questions for us to review:

For He was cut off from the land of the living; [either a person or Israel DIED]

For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. [either a person, a "He" was struck for Israel or Israel was struck to self-atone]

And they made His grave with the wicked— [Jesus was crucified between convicted thieves or else Israel died as a nation among wicked nations]

But with the rich at His death, [Jesus was entombed not in a family tomb but a wealthy man's donated, empty tomb or else Israel died among wealthy nations]

Because He had done no violence, [He was not a murderer/fighter/killer or else Israel, the nation, has never done violence in the Tanakh or since]

Nor was any deceit in His mouth. [Either the nation of Israel or a person has never lied]

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; [God was happy to beat/bruise/kill one person or the entire nation of Israel]

He has put Him to grief. [God made Israel grieve or else one person was put to grief.]

When You make His soul an offering for sin, [Either one person, a "He," or the nation of Israel was sacrificed for the sin of others.]

He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, [Either one person or the nation of Israel revived from the dead, and then saw their children -- who are the children of Israel who are not Israel itself?]

And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. [Either God's pleasure is being worked among Israel or from one person]

So, that's just some of Isaiah 53, not including the 53 passage or many other passages we can look at.

And if you can tell me you believe and understand this is referring to a prophecy that national, corporate, racial, Israel, a people with millions since the time of the writing of Isaiah, has DIED and RESURRECTED, and not that the "suffering servant", a singular person, has died and resurrected, then how can I ever share with you the "unambiguous" prophecy you seek?

Thanks for considering this all carefully.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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22-03-2016, 09:25 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(22-03-2016 09:20 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 09:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Wait a sec--your conclusion was off point. Just before your conclusion, you wrote:


Do you really need real-life examples of where people hurt or sacrificed themselves for a crime against them, on behalf of the criminal? You know as well as I that sometimes crime victims plead for mercy for the criminals themselves to judges and juries.

I myself am a parent, and a loving parent, therefore I have had occasion to mean it when I say, "This is hurting me more than it hurts you."

Of course Jesus sacrificed Himself for crimes we committed against Him:

1. He never did wrong and needed no self-atonement.
2. Mercy, grace and love prompt His atonement for us.
3. You seem to have a problem with people who care about others enough to sacrifice themselves for the lost...?

More bad analogies. Pleading for mercy for a criminal is not at all the same thing as fucking killing yourself to "atone" for the criminal's crime against yourself. Why do you refuse to see how fucking goofy that concept is? Nobody in real life has ever done such a thing, nor would anyone do such thing -- and if they did, they would rightly be judged as absolutely insane.

Grasshopper, no analogy is required if we understand the dictionary definition of atone:

"Make amends or reparation."

I would think you would understand how rather than killing the innocent Jesus, when the state executes a criminal who does a capital crime, we are looking partly at a punishment, partly at protecting a society for more killings from the criminal (execution is a 100% deterrent to future crimes from THAT criminal) and partly at amends or reparation to the family and friends of the victim, a closure...

Again, we need no analogies, but rather, there are fine comparisons of fine people and sad people who have killed themselves to cover someone else's crime, atone for someone else's crime, protest someone else's crime, etc.

So why not start there? Many fine Christians believe Jesus did NOT atone for everyone's crimes as much as died as an example, a sinless, innocent example, to show the world how bad sin really is.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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22-03-2016, 09:58 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(22-03-2016 09:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Many fine Christians believe Jesus did NOT atone for everyone's crimes as much as died as an example, a sinless, innocent example, to show the world how bad sin really is.

This makes about as much sense as a perfectly healthy person dying in an automobile accident, as an example to show the world how bad cancer really is.

That is to say, it makes no sense at all. And neither does anything else you say.
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22-03-2016, 10:00 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(22-03-2016 09:21 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(20-03-2016 10:43 AM)Aliza Wrote:  The Jews had been forbidden to study Torah, so they selected writings from the prophets that they felt mirrored the lessons taught in the Torah. The Haftorah serves a purpose. Isaiah 53 does not fulfill the Haftorah’s purpose. That’s why it’s not included. The Haftorah was arranged prior to Jesus, so I don’t know why you’re bothering with this at all.

If I was selling you a house, and I neglected to point out the mailbox (which we will assume is a perfectly normal, functioning mailbox), was I being dishonest? No, it’s just not regarded as an important feature in purchasing a house. Isaiah 53 doesn’t help the Haftorah achieve its goal. People who wanted to read it could read it at any time. The books were right there in the synagogue. -And they did read it (outside of the haftorah reading), they did discuss it, and they never saw Jesus anywhere in it.

If it was Isaiah 52 that didn’t serve the function established for the Haftorah, then the Christians would have painted Jesus all over that chapter instead and still accused us of dodging him. It doesn’t matter which chapter wasn’t included. The Christians will use anything to discredit us. (and then they wonder why we won’t convert!)

Can you give me the passages from my book where it says that G-d plans to come down to earth as a human and die for our sins, and that we’d better believe in this event otherwise we’ll burn in eternal hell? In the words of Mark Fulton, this is not rhetorical. Please actually do this for me. I don't want any peek-a-boo prophecy, either. My eternal soul is on the line here, so I want plain, unambiguous language that I can't misinterpret or misunderstand.

I understand the Haftorah construction, process, thanks. The lessons chosen began the move away from personal atonement from God to personal atonement on one's own behalf. But this is logical, since when Torah sacrifices are halted/obstructed SOMETHING has to be done for sin.

I was trying to point you to the suffering servant passages that you feel are about the nation of Israel. If you read verses that are clearly about Y'shua (or at least an individual and not a nation) as being about a whole nation... why would you choose to understand any unambiguous prophecy?

Your eternal soul and mine are on the line, yes. I think we can find what you are seeking in Tanakh, so let's take it one piece at a time. Let's start with this, and I'll add a few notes/questions for us to review:

For He was cut off from the land of the living; [either a person or Israel DIED]

For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. [either a person, a "He" was struck for Israel or Israel was struck to self-atone]

And they made His grave with the wicked— [Jesus was crucified between convicted thieves or else Israel died as a nation among wicked nations]

But with the rich at His death, [Jesus was entombed not in a family tomb but a wealthy man's donated, empty tomb or else Israel died among wealthy nations]

Because He had done no violence, [He was not a murderer/fighter/killer or else Israel, the nation, has never done violence in the Tanakh or since]

Nor was any deceit in His mouth. [Either the nation of Israel or a person has never lied]

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; [God was happy to beat/bruise/kill one person or the entire nation of Israel]

He has put Him to grief. [God made Israel grieve or else one person was put to grief.]

When You make His soul an offering for sin, [Either one person, a "He," or the nation of Israel was sacrificed for the sin of others.]

He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, [Either one person or the nation of Israel revived from the dead, and then saw their children -- who are the children of Israel who are not Israel itself?]

And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. [Either God's pleasure is being worked among Israel or from one person]

So, that's just some of Isaiah 53, not including the 53 passage or many other passages we can look at.

And if you can tell me you believe and understand this is referring to a prophecy that national, corporate, racial, Israel, a people with millions since the time of the writing of Isaiah, has DIED and RESURRECTED, and not that the "suffering servant", a singular person, has died and resurrected, then how can I ever share with you the "unambiguous" prophecy you seek?

Thanks for considering this all carefully.

I just find it very difficult to accept that my G-d would think its so important to give the tiniest details on how to live every aspect of Jewish life (in plain language) -and would specifically warn us in plain language to stay away from people like Jesus and Paul.... and then would not give us any clear instructions to disregard his eternal covenant with us when the very guy he told us to stay away from finally comes along.

Its almost as if Christianity just made all this stuff up! I'm staying away from it. It's nothing but bad news.
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22-03-2016, 10:05 AM
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(22-03-2016 09:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 09:20 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  More bad analogies. Pleading for mercy for a criminal is not at all the same thing as fucking killing yourself to "atone" for the criminal's crime against yourself. Why do you refuse to see how fucking goofy that concept is? Nobody in real life has ever done such a thing, nor would anyone do such thing -- and if they did, they would rightly be judged as absolutely insane.

Grasshopper, no analogy is required if we understand the dictionary definition of atone:

"Make amends or reparation."

I would think you would understand how rather than killing the innocent Jesus, when the state executes a criminal who does a capital crime, we are looking partly at a punishment, partly at protecting a society for more killings from the criminal (execution is a 100% deterrent to future crimes from THAT criminal) and partly at amends or reparation to the family and friends of the victim, a closure...

Again, we need no analogies, but rather, there are fine comparisons of fine people and sad people who have killed themselves to cover someone else's crime, atone for someone else's crime, protest someone else's crime, etc.

So why not start there? Many fine Christians believe Jesus did NOT atone for everyone's crimes as much as died as an example, a sinless, innocent example, to show the world how bad sin really is.
The claiming, raping, capturing, or sacrificing of young innocent virgin girls who never had to do a improper thing to get treated that way wasn't a good enough example to spread?

What I don't get is people who think Jesus did go through that for humanity act like it stood or does stands some test of improvement to people because it.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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