Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
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22-03-2016, 10:10 AM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2016 10:47 AM by Leo.)
RE: was marry asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(22-03-2016 10:00 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 09:21 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I understand the Haftorah construction, process, thanks. The lessons chosen began the move away from personal atonement from God to personal atonement on one's own behalf. But this is logical, since when Torah sacrifices are halted/obstructed SOMETHING has to be done for sin.

I was trying to point you to the suffering servant passages that you feel are about the nation of Israel. If you read verses that are clearly about Y'shua (or at least an individual and not a nation) as being about a whole nation... why would you choose to understand any unambiguous prophecy?

Your eternal soul and mine are on the line, yes. I think we can find what you are seeking in Tanakh, so let's take it one piece at a time. Let's start with this, and I'll add a few notes/questions for us to review:

For He was cut off from the land of the living; [either a person or Israel DIED]

For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. [either a person, a "He" was struck for Israel or Israel was struck to self-atone]

And they made His grave with the wicked— [Jesus was crucified between convicted thieves or else Israel died as a nation among wicked nations]

But with the rich at His death, [Jesus was entombed not in a family tomb but a wealthy man's donated, empty tomb or else Israel died among wealthy nations]

Because He had done no violence, [He was not a murderer/fighter/killer or else Israel, the nation, has never done violence in the Tanakh or since]

Nor was any deceit in His mouth. [Either the nation of Israel or a person has never lied]

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; [God was happy to beat/bruise/kill one person or the entire nation of Israel]

He has put Him to grief. [God made Israel grieve or else one person was put to grief.]

When You make His soul an offering for sin, [Either one person, a "He," or the nation of Israel was sacrificed for the sin of others.]

He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, [Either one person or the nation of Israel revived from the dead, and then saw their children -- who are the children of Israel who are not Israel itself?]

And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. [Either God's pleasure is being worked among Israel or from one person]

So, that's just some of Isaiah 53, not including the 53 passage or many other passages we can look at.

And if you can tell me you believe and understand this is referring to a prophecy that national, corporate, racial, Israel, a people with millions since the time of the writing of Isaiah, has DIED and RESURRECTED, and not that the "suffering servant", a singular person, has died and resurrected, then how can I ever share with you the "unambiguous" prophecy you seek?

Thanks for considering this all carefully.

I just find it very difficult to accept that my G-d would think its so important to give the tiniest details on how to live every aspect of Jewish life (in plain language) -and would specifically warn us in plain language to stay away from people like Jesus and Paul.... and then would not give us any clear instructions to disregard his eternal covenant with us when the very guy he told us to stay away from finally comes along.

Its almost as if Christianity just made all this stuff up! I'm staying away from it. It's nothing but bad news.

I don't think Jesus is a problem. The problem is Paul. Paul is the main founder of Christianity. Jesus and his direct followers were Torah observant Jews and Jesus never claimed to be a god. Jesus was a failed leader of the revolution and Jesus probably thought he was the messiah in the traditional sense. In the Cross he realized his failure. Jesus was one of the 100,000 crucified revolution leaders. Cruxifiction is the punishment for slaves and sedition.
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22-03-2016, 10:15 AM
RE: Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(22-03-2016 10:10 AM)Leo Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 10:00 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I just find it very difficult to accept that my G-d would think its so important to give the tiniest details on how to live every aspect of Jewish life (in plain language) -and would specifically warn us in plain language to stay away from people like Jesus and Paul.... and then would not give us any clear instructions to disregard his eternal covenant with us when the very guy he told us to stay away from finally comes along.

Its almost as if Christianity just made all this stuff up! I'm staying away from it. It's nothing but bad news.

I don't think Jesus is a problem. The problem is Paul. Paul is the main founder of Christianity. Jesus and his direct followers were Torah observant Jews and Jesus never claimed to be a god.

While I mostly agree with this, there is some dispute about it. Check out the book A Rabbi Talks to Jesus by Jacob Neusner, in which he claims that much of Jesus' teaching (at least as recounted in the Gospels) is not consistent with the Torah.

I will agree that Paul departed from the Torah to a much greater degree than Jesus did (again, assuming that the writings of the New Testament are accurate -- which is a big assumption).
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22-03-2016, 10:36 AM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2016 11:00 AM by Leo.)
RE: Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(22-03-2016 10:15 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 10:10 AM)Leo Wrote:  I don't think Jesus is a problem. The problem is Paul. Paul is the main founder of Christianity. Jesus and his direct followers were Torah observant Jews and Jesus never claimed to be a god.

While I mostly agree with this, there is some dispute about it. Check out the book A Rabbi Talks to Jesus by Jacob Neusner, in which he claims that much of Jesus' teaching (at least as recounted in the Gospels) is not consistent with the Torah.

I will agree that Paul departed from the Torah to a much greater degree than Jesus did (again, assuming that the writings of the New Testament are accurate -- which is a big assumption).

Some rabbis think that maybe Jesus was a Torah observant Jew using some quotes from the gospel of Mathew but again maybe most of Jesus "words" in the gospels were probably made up and put in yeshua mouth. Also the conflict between Paul and James ( and all direct followers of Jesus is very revealing). The original Jesus followers were Torah observant Jews. Paul invented current Christianity and the only way to gain gentile followers is to get rid of the Torah. Paul invented that Jesus died as a human sacrifice ( the bullshit atonement idea) and from there it goes downhill. Jesus " virgin birth " and all the other silly dogmas that came after . Including the trinity doctrine established in the council of Nicea 4th century and the later councils.

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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22-03-2016, 12:03 PM
RE: Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
Quote:Of course Jesus sacrificed Himself for crimes we committed against Him

*raises from his seat*

Your Honour,

i hereby plead "not guilty"
  • I have never met this man
  • I never did anything wrong to this man, and i never intended to
  • I dont even know who this man is
  • The prosecution cant even establish that he ever lived
  • If, so he was deceased, almost 2000y before i was born (see point #1 and #2)
  • This is part of a conspiracy to enslave my mind and my physical self
  • I am asking you to make justice prevail!

thank you

*sits down at his desk again*
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23-03-2016, 09:37 AM
RE: Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(22-03-2016 09:58 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 09:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Many fine Christians believe Jesus did NOT atone for everyone's crimes as much as died as an example, a sinless, innocent example, to show the world how bad sin really is.

This makes about as much sense as a perfectly healthy person dying in an automobile accident, as an example to show the world how bad cancer really is.

That is to say, it makes no sense at all. And neither does anything else you say.

That is because you are uncomfortable with the notion of sin:

1. We both know that many things Christians call "sin" lead to death/destruction (in most cases/tendencies) e.g. illegal or legal drug abuse, alcoholism, illicit sexual promiscuity, angry rages, obsessive eating, etc.

2. Jesus didn't do anything wrong.

3. His death shows how sin destroys innocents. The sinner hurts "not just themselves" but others.

How do I know this was successful? Go ahead, and even though I understand you disagree with substitutionary atonement (and sin!) as real, name everyone whose sin sacrifice is more well known today that Christ's:

Famous sin sacrifice 1:

" " 2:

" " 3:

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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23-03-2016, 09:40 AM
RE: Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(22-03-2016 10:00 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 09:21 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I understand the Haftorah construction, process, thanks. The lessons chosen began the move away from personal atonement from God to personal atonement on one's own behalf. But this is logical, since when Torah sacrifices are halted/obstructed SOMETHING has to be done for sin.

I was trying to point you to the suffering servant passages that you feel are about the nation of Israel. If you read verses that are clearly about Y'shua (or at least an individual and not a nation) as being about a whole nation... why would you choose to understand any unambiguous prophecy?

Your eternal soul and mine are on the line, yes. I think we can find what you are seeking in Tanakh, so let's take it one piece at a time. Let's start with this, and I'll add a few notes/questions for us to review:

For He was cut off from the land of the living; [either a person or Israel DIED]

For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. [either a person, a "He" was struck for Israel or Israel was struck to self-atone]

And they made His grave with the wicked— [Jesus was crucified between convicted thieves or else Israel died as a nation among wicked nations]

But with the rich at His death, [Jesus was entombed not in a family tomb but a wealthy man's donated, empty tomb or else Israel died among wealthy nations]

Because He had done no violence, [He was not a murderer/fighter/killer or else Israel, the nation, has never done violence in the Tanakh or since]

Nor was any deceit in His mouth. [Either the nation of Israel or a person has never lied]

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; [God was happy to beat/bruise/kill one person or the entire nation of Israel]

He has put Him to grief. [God made Israel grieve or else one person was put to grief.]

When You make His soul an offering for sin, [Either one person, a "He," or the nation of Israel was sacrificed for the sin of others.]

He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, [Either one person or the nation of Israel revived from the dead, and then saw their children -- who are the children of Israel who are not Israel itself?]

And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. [Either God's pleasure is being worked among Israel or from one person]

So, that's just some of Isaiah 53, not including the 53 passage or many other passages we can look at.

And if you can tell me you believe and understand this is referring to a prophecy that national, corporate, racial, Israel, a people with millions since the time of the writing of Isaiah, has DIED and RESURRECTED, and not that the "suffering servant", a singular person, has died and resurrected, then how can I ever share with you the "unambiguous" prophecy you seek?

Thanks for considering this all carefully.

I just find it very difficult to accept that my G-d would think its so important to give the tiniest details on how to live every aspect of Jewish life (in plain language) -and would specifically warn us in plain language to stay away from people like Jesus and Paul.... and then would not give us any clear instructions to disregard his eternal covenant with us when the very guy he told us to stay away from finally comes along.

Its almost as if Christianity just made all this stuff up! I'm staying away from it. It's nothing but bad news.

1. There is plain language in the Bible NOT to stay away from the Messiah when He is revealed. Much in the Tanakh!

2. Should I take your silence on my many points as tacit agreement that Isaiah 53 is talking about a single person and not a nation? I urge you to sit down and read the end of 52, chapter 53, and come to understand what it really is that Toviah Singer et al are attempting to do...

3. Are you aware of the plain language prophecies in Daniel that Messiah would come within 500 years of the decree to rebuild the Jerusalem wall, placing Y'shua as the Messiah, specifically?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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23-03-2016, 09:44 AM
RE: Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(22-03-2016 12:03 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
Quote:Of course Jesus sacrificed Himself for crimes we committed against Him

*raises from his seat*

Your Honour,

i hereby plead "not guilty"
  • I have never met this man
  • I never did anything wrong to this man, and i never intended to
  • I dont even know who this man is
  • The prosecution cant even establish that he ever lived
  • If, so he was deceased, almost 2000y before i was born (see point #1 and #2)
  • This is part of a conspiracy to enslave my mind and my physical self
  • I am asking you to make justice prevail!

thank you

*sits down at his desk again*

1. The overwhelming majority of scholars of all persuasions are convinced Jesus of Nazareth was a real person, an historical figure.

2. The judge would "make justice prevail" if you were willed an inheritance or obligation from a relative you'd never met. The Bible contains two "testaments" or wills of God to leave you an inheritance. I'd be grateful if an uncle I'd never yet met left me an inheritance. You will have to solve your own issues here--why you'd reject such a substantial free gift, willed to you through none of your efforts.

PS. When your "day in court" comes, you CANNOT say you haven't heard--me and others at TTA and in your life circumstances have "testified" to you "under oath" already!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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23-03-2016, 09:44 AM
RE: Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(23-03-2016 09:40 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. Should I take your silence on my many points as tacit agreement that Isaiah 53 is talking about a single person and not a nation?

Actually, my silence is just because I'm studying for an exam. I'm trying to stick to quick replies for now. School work has to come first. Dodgy
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23-03-2016, 09:46 AM
RE: Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(23-03-2016 09:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  That is because you are uncomfortable with the notion of sin

Well, no. We just consider it rather incoherent and silly, mostly, much like other religions' concepts of things like karma, or being buried with your possessions to take them with you.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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23-03-2016, 09:57 AM
RE: Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(23-03-2016 09:44 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. The overwhelming majority of scholars of all persuasions are convinced Jesus of Nazareth was a real person, an historical figure.

That's lovely. What evidence do they have that the Bible stories about him are true?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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