Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
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24-03-2016, 09:39 AM
RE: Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(24-03-2016 08:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 07:36 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  How about legend?

....Is it so wild to think that it is possible that there was a literal Yeshua who was a lunatic or liar, whose story was vastly exploited by others for whatever reason is nothing more than a legend?

I'm not sure why you're suggesting a legend as a third option, while suggesting it was a legend possibly based on a historical lunatic?

That seems to be more or less of an agreement with the view I suggested.

Lewis gave 3 options: liar, lunatic, or lord. There are really 4 options and Lewis either didn't think of the legend or he blatantly left it out. The legend possibilty also can be for a ficticious person thereby negating the liar or lunatic possibilty. You did not take that possability into account. Legends such as Count Dracula are based on a real person who was very disturbed. That is why legend is also a valid possibility because it can be for either a real or ficticious person.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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24-03-2016, 10:31 AM
RE: Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(23-03-2016 11:47 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
Quote:The eternal punishment of Hell...isn't finite in duration, but it is finite in power/pain

Are you that dishonest on purpose? Do you really think this pathetic attempt at weaseling out will work on anyone in here, or up in heaven? Please dont insult our intellect by not even trying to refute properly. Remember: god is omniscient. He knows when you are lying, even when you dont admit it to yourself. Can you feel him watching you? Who are you trying to fool here?

Its irrelevant if the pain is infinite. It is particularly relevant how long it lasts.......for fucking ever.
Again: How is "for ever" not infinite?

Second:
I asked "How do you determine god is just?"
You say:
Quote:A simple reading of the Bible....shows God is loving and just
Once again, you are trying to insult our intellect, by not answering the question at all. Why this disrespect?
Again: On what basis do you judge god?

Quote:God is just and should punish sinners, so He punishes Christ for the love of mankind
You think its moral to punish someone for someone elses crimes?

Third: "thou shalt not kill"
You seem to have decided to just ignore that issue (as well). I will repeat it here, just to remind you. I am again asking you to resolve this contradiction of yours in your various statements......if you bother to be intellectually honest enough to answer at all.
The Q Continuum Wrote:God's standards are absolute
Deesse23 Wrote:Really? In your answer below you -and the bible- seem to have a completely different point of view
The Q Continuum Wrote:The Bible states that state-sanctioned execution, of say, murderers, is killing that isn't murder. I have no problem with that.

Four:
Deesse23 Wrote:Would you go and rape and kill if your god wouldnt order you otherwise?
The Q Continuum Wrote:**No.
Again: Why do you need "thou shalt not kill" if you wouldnt kill anyway?

Quote:2. I don't have to "make excuses" for slavery in a book that contains indentured servitude. I have to defend truth from atheists telling half-truths.
You are a despicable, dishonest piece of work. If id call you a piece of shit, it would be insulting to shit, because shit at least is honest enough to simply stink and doesnt claim it shines like gold.
See Fatbaldhobbits reply.

You have given up your human dignity for an immoral fantasy. Its hard to sink any deeper than that. Maybe only by being proud of it.....which you actually are.

I will respond to your hostility peaceably, but I encourage you to read my avatar's signature--you are contributing to myths about atheists.

1. You are mad at me for bothering to tell you what I really think? Because I parse infinite and eternal and know the difference between eternal punishment or infinite punishment? How about love, then? When your wife says, "I will love you forever, eternally, does she give you infinite love?" You are entitled to be angry with me for splitting hairs, however, I recommend you not become a lawyer, judge or English instructor if you don't care to look at word meanings in-depth. I don't wish to dispute words with you--but evangelicals love to get into word meanings from the Greek and Hebrew--and English.

2. Is it NOT irrelevant whether pain is infinite. God even SAYS in the Bible, "If you sin more, more punishment, and vice versa," because He is EXACT and FAIR and JUST.

3. Be a little more realistic. Have you murdered anyone? Stolen a man's wife?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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24-03-2016, 10:52 AM
RE: Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
  • How is for ever not infinite?
  • On what basis do you judge god? How do you determine he is just?
  • Do you think its moral to punish someone for someone elses crimes?
  • Why do you state that gods commandmends are absolute, but think killing killers is ok?
  • If you wouldnt rape and kill anyway, without god ordering you otherwise, why do you need his commandmend?
  • Why do you lie about slavery in the bible, when it is clear that the bible is ok with slavery?
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24-03-2016, 11:38 AM
Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(24-03-2016 09:39 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 08:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm not sure why you're suggesting a legend as a third option, while suggesting it was a legend possibly based on a historical lunatic?

That seems to be more or less of an agreement with the view I suggested.

Lewis gave 3 options: liar, lunatic, or lord. There are really 4 options and Lewis either didn't think of the legend or he blatantly left it out. The legend possibilty also can be for a ficticious person thereby negating the liar or lunatic possibilty. You did not take that possability into account. Legends such as Count Dracula are based on a real person who was very disturbed. That is why legend is also a valid possibility because it can be for either a real or ficticious person.

You objection here would only work if the position of liar lunatic, or lord was suggested by a fundie literalist. If you were to claim that certain aspects of the Gospel accounts are not historical, were created by their respective communities and authors, etc...Lewis would agree with you.

Pointing out that certain aspects of the Gospel accounts are unlikely to be historical, does not address whether the historical persons behind it was either a liar, or a lunatic, or lord.


As your own possibility already suggest, that it was possibly based on a historical lunatic, here you're not taking a forth option, but the lunatic option.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-03-2016, 11:53 AM
RE: Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(24-03-2016 11:38 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 09:39 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Lewis gave 3 options: liar, lunatic, or lord. There are really 4 options and Lewis either didn't think of the legend or he blatantly left it out. The legend possibilty also can be for a ficticious person thereby negating the liar or lunatic possibilty. You did not take that possability into account. Legends such as Count Dracula are based on a real person who was very disturbed. That is why legend is also a valid possibility because it can be for either a real or ficticious person.

You objection here would only work if the position of liar lunatic, or lord was suggested by a fundie literalist. If you were to claim that certain aspects of the Gospel accounts are not historical, were created by their respective communities and authors, etc...Lewis would agree with you.

Pointing out that certain aspects of the Gospel accounts are unlikely to be historical, does not address whether the historical persons behind it was either a liar, or a lunatic, or lord.


As your own possibility already suggest, that it was possibly based on a historical lunatic, here you're not taking a forth option, but the lunatic option.

What of it being based on a person who not at any point was anything described as a lunatic.... what grounds would a person need to get to to be one? What if it was just a normal rabbi who never claimed any messiah or lordship or did anything special who was crucified. There's nothing innate lunatic like.

Or there's still that like zeitgeist films extensive claim of the Jesus story being all myth based taken from mythra or other stories. What if it was just the story of Simon who was a failed prophet reworked as a human living 40 years later than that.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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24-03-2016, 11:56 AM
Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(24-03-2016 11:53 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 11:38 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You objection here would only work if the position of liar lunatic, or lord was suggested by a fundie literalist. If you were to claim that certain aspects of the Gospel accounts are not historical, were created by their respective communities and authors, etc...Lewis would agree with you.

Pointing out that certain aspects of the Gospel accounts are unlikely to be historical, does not address whether the historical persons behind it was either a liar, or a lunatic, or lord.


As your own possibility already suggest, that it was possibly based on a historical lunatic, here you're not taking a forth option, but the lunatic option.

What of it being based on a person who not at any point was anything described as a lunatic.... what grounds would a person need to get to to be one? What if it was just a normal rabbi who never claimed any messiah or lordship or did anything special who was crucified. There's nothing innate lunatic like.

Or there's still that like zeitgeist films extensive claim of the Jesus story being all myth based taken from mythra or other stories. What if it was just the story of Simon who was a failed prophet reworked as a human living 40 years later than that.

A normal Rabbi who taught what? Crucified for what?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-03-2016, 12:01 PM
RE: Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(24-03-2016 11:56 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 11:53 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  What of it being based on a person who not at any point was anything described as a lunatic.... what grounds would a person need to get to to be one? What if it was just a normal rabbi who never claimed any messiah or lordship or did anything special who was crucified. There's nothing innate lunatic like.

Or there's still that like zeitgeist films extensive claim of the Jesus story being all myth based taken from mythra or other stories. What if it was just the story of Simon who was a failed prophet reworked as a human living 40 years later than that.

A normal Rabbi who taught what? Crucified for what?
Being against the Roman control. That's basically the story Josepheus has of that 1st century bc rebel Simon of p.. something I forget.

He had a following, wanted to stop Rome, some thought he may be the Messiah, and he was crucified for uprising against Romans.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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24-03-2016, 12:04 PM
RE: Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(24-03-2016 12:01 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 11:56 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A normal Rabbi who taught what? Crucified for what?
Being against the Roman control. That's basically the story Josepheus has of that 1st century bc rebel Simon of p.. something I forget.

He had a following, wanted to stop Rome, some thought he may be the Messiah, and he was crucified for uprising against Romans.

Pretty much want happened to the real Jesus if he existed. The gospels are Roman propaganda. The romans were the good guys in the gospels. Pilate was portrayed as a nice guy in the gospels. In reality he was a super asshole.

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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24-03-2016, 12:10 PM
Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(24-03-2016 12:01 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 11:56 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A normal Rabbi who taught what? Crucified for what?
Being against the Roman control. That's basically the story Josepheus has of that 1st century bc rebel Simon of p.. something I forget.

He had a following, wanted to stop Rome, some thought he may be the Messiah, and he was crucified for uprising against Romans.

So he wasn't just a normal rabbi, but the leader of a possibly violent Jewish revolt against Rome?

What was this Rabbi teaching?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-03-2016, 12:13 PM
RE: Was Mary asked to come get Jesus for being mad
(24-03-2016 12:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 12:01 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Being against the Roman control. That's basically the story Josepheus has of that 1st century bc rebel Simon of p.. something I forget.

He had a following, wanted to stop Rome, some thought he may be the Messiah, and he was crucified for uprising against Romans.

So he wasn't just a normal rabbi, but the leader of a possibly violent Jewish revolt against Rome?

What was this Rabbi teaching?
I don't know I'd Simon was or not a rabbi but he was one of several failed hopeful messiahs at the time.

The rabbi that became Jesus could of been teaching the status quo and letter of the Torah. And just maybe saw it as Rome being the modern babalyon or asyria and the Jews would regain more strength in control again.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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