Was Religious yet Free Thinking?
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17-03-2017, 07:19 PM
RE: Was Religious yet Free Thinking?
(17-03-2017 06:20 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(17-03-2017 01:15 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Any label that requires such a belief structure [religious dogma] is antithetical to free thinking. You have to partition your free thinking, sectioning it away from certain ideas and beliefs...

Agree totally. Blindly accepting the absolute dogma of religion immediately diminishes one's capability of thinking freely. If you accept the actuality of paranormal phenomena and supernatural entities, then you've partially blinded yourself to the the full gamut of the sciences.
I agree technically, particularly given EvolutionKills qualification of "sectioning it away from certain ideas and beliefs" which I take to be a description of compartmentalization. Fundamentalists could not function in the Real World at all without compartmentalization. With it, they are sane, independent thinkers in certain contexts.
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17-03-2017, 08:43 PM
RE: Was Religious yet Free Thinking?
(17-03-2017 07:19 PM)mordant Wrote:  With it, they are sane, independent thinkers in certain contexts.


Which makes them shitty critical thinkers. Because they cannot apply their critical thinking universally. Why this is apparently so hard to grasp is beyond me.

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17-03-2017, 09:02 PM
RE: Was Religious yet Free Thinking?
I can relate to the TC; I grew up hardcore CoC and was told things were bad that I basically just took their or the Bible's word for. The gay marriage issue was one of the things that finally started started to make me come to grips with me not really believing, because no matter how hard I tried, I just couldn't make myself get angry or offended by it. I never understood why it was such a big deal.

Looking back, I do believe at some point I was a "real" Christian but at the same time, I can say things about it always bugged me and nagged me. This was explained away as things that I would "figure out as I grew as a Christan". It turns out all that means is "fake it til you make it". Things like why the OT God was so much different than the NT God even though he was supposed to be the same God, why he suddenly went from talking straight to everyone to then letting certain people do miracles, to somehow coming to the conclusion that the best way to spread and document his word was relying on messy translations decades after the supposed events. s

And I finally had the Bill Burr type moment of "Why is what those other religions believe so stupid but my beliefs aren't?" Then I realized....yeah mine are stupid too.
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18-03-2017, 05:43 AM
RE: Was Religious yet Free Thinking?
(17-03-2017 08:43 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(17-03-2017 07:19 PM)mordant Wrote:  With it, they are sane, independent thinkers in certain contexts.


Which makes them shitty critical thinkers. Because they cannot apply their critical thinking universally. Why this is apparently so hard to grasp is beyond me.
Maybe because NO ONE applies critical thinking universally, and those who claim to, are themselves not thinking critically.

If you don't believe me, read this and weep.

The only claim I make is to understand and own the fact that my brain is less than perfectly rational, that I recognize the rampant confirmation bias that I am prone to, and embrace things like the scientific method that systematically work against my imperfect mental equipment. I do not claim to be perfectly rational or inherently better than others.

In other words confirmation bias, irrationality, superstition, etc., are not just things OTHER people are prone to, and that I have somehow perfectly freed myself from. Ditching religious faith is a huge step in the right direction -- but only a step.
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18-03-2017, 05:49 AM
RE: Was Religious yet Free Thinking?
(18-03-2017 05:43 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(17-03-2017 08:43 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Which makes them shitty critical thinkers. Because they cannot apply their critical thinking universally. Why this is apparently so hard to grasp is beyond me.
Maybe because NO ONE applies critical thinking universally, and those who claim to, are themselves not thinking critically.

If you don't believe me, read this and weep.

The only claim I make is to understand and own the fact that my brain is less than perfectly rational, that I recognize the rampant confirmation bias that I am prone to, and embrace things like the scientific method that systematically work against my imperfect mental equipment. I do not claim to be perfectly rational or inherently better than others.

In other words confirmation bias, irrationality, superstition, etc., are not just things OTHER people are prone to.

At what point did I ever claim that perfect critical thinking was possible or obtainable? Consider

If one is, however, capable of critical thought; and chooses not to apply that skill to a preferred belief, that makes them a shitty critical thinker. There has to be a point when people are called out for their purposeful ignorance. Drinking Beverage

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18-03-2017, 05:57 AM
RE: Was Religious yet Free Thinking?
Why you gotta ruin shit, EK? You ruiner. Tongue

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18-03-2017, 07:17 AM
RE: Was Religious yet Free Thinking?
(18-03-2017 05:49 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(18-03-2017 05:43 AM)mordant Wrote:  Maybe because NO ONE applies critical thinking universally, and those who claim to, are themselves not thinking critically.

If you don't believe me, read this and weep.

The only claim I make is to understand and own the fact that my brain is less than perfectly rational, that I recognize the rampant confirmation bias that I am prone to, and embrace things like the scientific method that systematically work against my imperfect mental equipment. I do not claim to be perfectly rational or inherently better than others.

In other words confirmation bias, irrationality, superstition, etc., are not just things OTHER people are prone to.

At what point did I ever claim that perfect critical thinking was possible or obtainable? Consider

If one is, however, capable of critical thought; and chooses not to apply that skill to a preferred belief, that makes them a shitty critical thinker. There has to be a point when people are called out for their purposeful ignorance. Drinking Beverage
Nowhere, but I think a great deal of our rhetoric here suggests / implies that we are so far advanced beyond our knuckle-dragging theist interlocutors as to be at least relatively perfected in our thinking. Granted, theBorg, SocialistView and some others certainly make this a very tempting proposition. But I always cast back to the 1970s and 1980s and remember my old blinkered self, and realize that the only thing that separated me from those sorts of believers back in the day, was the good fortune that my religion of origin was not so extreme, and was in fact rather heady.

In my view, religious faith does not produce confirmation bias; it works because confirmation bias is already present. We also need to remind ourselves that confirmation bias is hardly confined to religious ideation. As the article I cited points out, we are biased to all sorts of things, not least the views of the group we most want to be a full-fledged part of.

So, sure, I can and do call out disordered thinking, but I do it with compassion rather than contempt. And no, I'm not suggesting which way you tend to do it. I frankly am not keeping score. I was just adding some nuance to your comments.
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18-03-2017, 09:47 AM
RE: Was Religious yet Free Thinking?
(18-03-2017 05:43 AM)mordant Wrote:  Maybe because NO ONE applies critical thinking universally, and those who claim to, are themselves not thinking critically.

If you don't believe me, read this and weep.

My favorite PHIL prof wrote a journal piece on that very topic way back in the day.

Minimal Rationality

"In intentional explanations of behaviour, we require rationality of the agent. How rational must a creature be to be an agent, that is, to qualify as having a cognitive system of beliefs, desires, perceptions? In the philosophy of psychology, there has been a relatively uncritical acceptance of highly idealized conceptions of rationality. I shall attempt here to characterize a concept of minimal rationality; in particular, according to such a rationality concept, an agent can have a less than perfect deductive ability. I shall argue that we in fact require only minimal, as distinguished from ideal, rationality of an agent. I shall further propose that such minimal rationality conditions are indispensable for any adequate intentional theory. What is at stake is closely related to issues concerning the very possibility of a cognitive science, and of a realist interpretation of it."

#sigh
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18-03-2017, 12:35 PM
RE: Was Religious yet Free Thinking?
(18-03-2017 09:47 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  My favorite PHIL prof wrote a journal piece on that very topic way back in the day.

"I shall argue that we in fact require only minimal, as distinguished from ideal, rationality of an agent."

Considering that our psychological default settings were evolved to promote our survival, it isn't surprising they are opportunistic rather than rational.

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