Was banned for asking...
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14-09-2011, 02:04 AM
RE: Was banned for asking...
(13-09-2011 10:15 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(12-09-2011 01:38 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  God murdered people for the most trivial of reasons, most commonly for not being Jewish, but also for such things as glancing the wrong way, saying the wrong thing, not doing what they were told, or because their parents offended him. He allegedly killed over 300,000 people and gave orders for over one and a half million more to be murdered. I will choose only a few examples from a list of hundreds to give the reader a taste of how cheap life was in the Old Testament.
God never does anything for a trivial reason but there are times when we simply can't understand the reasons for his actions.

There is only one reason for death and that is sin. Romans 5:12 says,
Quote:Sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because wall sinned.
All of us are going to die. Some of us are allowed to live out our full lifespan and die of old age but sometimes God intervenes and ends our lives before we reach this point but the fact that we die is a consequence of the fact that we are all sinners. All God's intervention does is change the time and manner of death.

If you want explanations for the actions you mentioned in your post the best place to look would be a good commentary. Here is a site where you can read several of them online:

http://studylight.org/com/

I am sure the people who wrote these commentaries knew more about the Bible than I do and can provide better answers to your questions.

I'm very disappointed. You have handballed my question to someone else, and his arguments are pathetically illogical.

Why can't you be a man and proudly defend what you believe in, OR admit the arguments are indefensible? You could still hold your head up high if you did that.
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14-09-2011, 10:57 AM
RE: Was banned for asking...
(13-09-2011 12:09 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  What about the fossil record and its record of death? Or do you ignore the fossil record and consider it to be a result of the flood? If so, what evidence causes you to believe it is such.

Why couldn't they be the result of the flood? Here is an explanation from the Christian perspective.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles...sil-record

Scientists who claim the fossils developed over a long span of time begin their studies by assuming that everything that exists is the result of physical laws and processes we see taking place now and that God have never intervened in history. This assumption itself can't be tested.

Quote:If your hypothesis is that organisms could live forever, if not for the advent of sin, then it should be possible to determine a way to remove these imperfections and expand lifespans to infinity. The problem with this hypothesis is that it is not scientific. It is not testable or falsifiable.

The only way to remove the imperfections that are the result of sin is to remove the original cause: sin.

Quote:People alive today should praise the creation of sin. Without sin, people would have been immortal. Meaning Adam and Eve would never have had reason to procreate, because the human species (and every other species) would have had no need to do so. And they would not have needed to eat. In fact they would be unable to eat because doing so would kill off plant life, and since plants would also have no need to reproduce they would have gone extinct. So, sin enabled the ENTIRE human species to exist. All praise SIN!

How do you know all of this? If you read the creation account in Genesis God ordered Adam and Eve to bear children and populate the earth and one of the reasons he created plants was to provide food for them and the animals. God's definition of life is different from ours and he doesn't consider plants to be alive.

(13-09-2011 09:52 PM)Sines Wrote:  Oh, and Theophilius, you really just sound like your talking nonsense now. But I'll be fair. Quantum Mechanics and Relativity sound like nonsense at first too. So, hows about you show us how you know the things you claim? Remember, claims of books aren't going to do it. We need real world, objectively verifiable evidence. Because if there's no mark left in the real world, the only world we can observe, then how can we actually know of it?

The existence of God isn't some abstract fact to be proved or disproved. God is a person and whether or not we know him depends on whether or not he chooses to reveal himself to us. He has promised that anyone who seeks him and is willing to obey him will know him.

(14-09-2011 02:04 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Why can't you be a man and proudly defend what you believe in, OR admit the arguments are indefensible? You could still hold your head up high if you did that.

I don't have either the time or the knowledge necessary to answer all the questions and arguments that have been raised. The fact that I can't defend something doesn't prove that it can't be defended. Since I can't answer all of your questions myself the best thing I can do is refer you to someone who can.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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14-09-2011, 12:20 PM
RE: Was banned for asking...
(14-09-2011 10:57 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(13-09-2011 09:52 PM)Sines Wrote:  Oh, and Theophilius, you really just sound like your talking nonsense now. But I'll be fair. Quantum Mechanics and Relativity sound like nonsense at first too. So, hows about you show us how you know the things you claim? Remember, claims of books aren't going to do it. We need real world, objectively verifiable evidence. Because if there's no mark left in the real world, the only world we can observe, then how can we actually know of it?

The existence of God isn't some abstract fact to be proved or disproved. God is a person and whether or not we know him depends on whether or not he chooses to reveal himself to us. He has promised that anyone who seeks him and is willing to obey him will know him.

You say he can't be proved or disproved... then how do you know him? He'd at least have to prove himself to you, even if that proof is insufficient for others. Also, by your very claim, you're calling the majority of ex-christians turned atheists liars. As I'm sure many of them sought out Yahweh and were willing to serve him. Of course, I don't know how you could be willing to serve something you don't even have proof for yet, but hey, people do think that way, so, there you are.

I figured you'd go for one of the standard question dodgings. The good ol' "God can't be proved, but this is how he can be proved, and all ex-christian atheists are liars," routine.
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14-09-2011, 03:21 PM
RE: Was banned for asking...
(03-09-2011 07:18 AM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  Hello Monk, saw your post and just wanted to say sorry for the way you were treated on this forum, and just wanted to let you know that this type of response is regretful.

...

I am often angered when on Christian forums atheists are attacked, and banned. The very ones we are trying to reach are being shut out of discussion, making it a private little club, it seems.

Well, I hate to derail this thread. *heh* At least you got an apology, Monk, which is nice. Did you get unbanned or invited back?

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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14-09-2011, 03:57 PM
RE: Was banned for asking...
(14-09-2011 03:21 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(03-09-2011 07:18 AM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  Hello Monk, saw your post and just wanted to say sorry for the way you were treated on this forum, and just wanted to let you know that this type of response is regretful.

...

I am often angered when on Christian forums atheists are attacked, and banned. The very ones we are trying to reach are being shut out of discussion, making it a private little club, it seems.

Well, I hate to derail this thread. *heh* At least you got an apology, Monk, which is nice. Did you get unbanned or invited back?

No.

The tread was deleted afterward. The pure hatred I was reviving for asking questions was expected though, because Christians are mostly hypocrites. They want to preach to you all day, but when you want to preach to them, they don't want to hear it.
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15-09-2011, 10:29 AM
RE: Was banned for asking...
(14-09-2011 12:20 PM)Sines Wrote:  You say he can't be proved or disproved... then how do you know him?

What I said was that he can't be proved or disproved by the methods that are used to test the truth of statements regarding scientific or historical facts. He can be known in the same way another person can be known; he must be willing to reveal himself to us. And he has provided enough evidence for those who are willing to accept it. He has promised that anyone who is really seeks him and is willing to do his will can know him.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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15-09-2011, 10:11 PM (This post was last modified: 15-09-2011 10:41 PM by defacto7.)
RE: Was banned for asking...
(15-09-2011 10:29 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(14-09-2011 12:20 PM)Sines Wrote:  You say he can't be proved or disproved... then how do you know him?

What I said was that he can't be proved or disproved by the methods that are used to test the truth of statements regarding scientific or historical facts. He can be known in the same way another person can be known; he must be willing to reveal himself to us. And he has provided enough evidence for those who are willing to accept it. He has promised that anyone who is really seeks him and is willing to do his will can know him.

I DID THAT FOR 32 GOD DAMNED WASTED YEARS. IT'S BULL SHIT! You are truly deluding yourself! It's a mental illness. Save yourself!
There is NO god who will save you from that insanity! There is NO god who has promised anything! There is NO god who has provided evidence to anyone! It's in your head!

Sayest the Cowardly Lion....
"I do believe in spooks, I do, I do I do, I do believe in spooks"

Keep chanting that and eventually you'll believe...

"really seeks him"... "is willing to do..." really! REALLY? ... IS WILLING? There! That is the basis of the mass delusion itself! That is the basis of millions of innocent, merciless deaths and the torture of millions upon millions of innocent human beings.

I was a devout believer. I believed and worshiped and prayed and was devoted... and a fundamentalist. Did God decide NOT to reveal himself to me? Was I NOT faithful enough? Was I NOT willing to do his will? Are you sooo much more worthy than I? Don't make those stupid, empty, arrogant, statements to me. I know EXACTLY where you come from. And you sir, are wrong... painfully wrong. ...and you are deluded!

Save yourself... or live the rest of your life a deluded liar.

Have a nice day.

Who can turn skies back and begin again?
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15-09-2011, 11:35 PM
RE: Was banned for asking...
(15-09-2011 10:11 PM)defacto7 Wrote:  
(15-09-2011 10:29 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(14-09-2011 12:20 PM)Sines Wrote:  You say he can't be proved or disproved... then how do you know him?

What I said was that he can't be proved or disproved by the methods that are used to test the truth of statements regarding scientific or historical facts. He can be known in the same way another person can be known; he must be willing to reveal himself to us. And he has provided enough evidence for those who are willing to accept it. He has promised that anyone who is really seeks him and is willing to do his will can know him.

I DID THAT FOR 32 GOD DAMNED WASTED YEARS. IT'S BULL SHIT! You are truly deluding yourself! It's a mental illness. Save yourself!
There is NO god who will save you from that insanity! There is NO god who has promised anything! There is NO god who has provided evidence to anyone! It's in your head!

Sayest the Cowardly Lion....
"I do believe in spooks, I do, I do I do, I do believe in spooks"

Keep chanting that and eventually you'll believe...

"really seeks him"... "is willing to do..." really! REALLY? ... IS WILLING? There! That is the basis of the mass delusion itself! That is the basis of millions of innocent, merciless deaths and the torture of millions upon millions of innocent human beings.

I was a devout believer. I believed and worshiped and prayed and was devoted... and a fundamentalist. Did God decide NOT to reveal himself to me? Was I NOT faithful enough? Was I NOT willing to do his will? Are you sooo much more worthy than I? Don't make those stupid, empty, arrogant, statements to me. I know EXACTLY where you come from. And you sir, are wrong... painfully wrong. ...and you are deluded!

Save yourself... or live the rest of your life a deluded liar.

Have a nice day.

THIS. A thousand times THIS. Exclamation

We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.

- Carl Sagan
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15-09-2011, 11:57 PM (This post was last modified: 16-09-2011 12:01 AM by defacto7.)
RE: Was banned for asking...
(14-09-2011 10:57 AM)theophilus Wrote:  I don't have either the time or the knowledge necessary to answer all the questions and arguments that have been raised. ...... Since I can't answer all of your questions myself the best thing I can do is ....

...is stop preaching stuff you don't know! Stop answering questions you can't answer. Stop believing stuff you can't defend. Stop mimicking what someone else says! Stop blathering off stuff you've memorized!

Start... thinking for yourself. Outside of that, you are not credible.

BTW, that link can't answer the questions any more than you can.

Who can turn skies back and begin again?
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16-09-2011, 12:18 PM
RE: Was banned for asking...
(15-09-2011 10:29 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(14-09-2011 12:20 PM)Sines Wrote:  You say he can't be proved or disproved... then how do you know him?

What I said was that he can't be proved or disproved by the methods that are used to test the truth of statements regarding scientific or historical facts. He can be known in the same way another person can be known; he must be willing to reveal himself to us. And he has provided enough evidence for those who are willing to accept it. He has promised that anyone who is really seeks him and is willing to do his will can know him.

I don't know about anyone else, but the above statement makes no sense to me. So if you accept evidence of someone that has no evidence, isn't that a paradox? I mean, outside of scripture, there is no evidence of anything in the bible really happening. It's all hearsay. I don't like it when people resort to mumbo jumbo like 'He loves you just love him back even though you cannot see him'

In logic, we have to deal with what is available. I am certain a 2000 year old cult would've let more evidence for some supernatural 'god' instead of speculation, innuendo, multiple versions of the bibles, et al. I won't get into the fact that Christianity has a pagan history, but that's another can of worms.

The entire Jesus story is, well, bullshit. Most Caucasian westerners think that Jesus is white, while jews things he's, well, a jew. I hardly think Americans with middle-eastern-phobia would enjoy having a darker skinned version of Jesus as their 'savior'.

I look at reality and know it does not come from an ancient book written by a bunch of ignorant downtrodden Palestinian peasants from 2000 years ago. A book full of lies, errors, myths, and superstitions. It is a book that has been shown by the telescope and microscope to be absolutely false. A 5th grader from today knows more about the world than all of humanity did at the time that book was written or conceived. It is foolish to believe and even more foolish to pass on religious absurdities that have been shown to be wrong.

We live in a world that requires evidence. People are waking up and asking questions, it's starting already around you. Most people are distrustful of anything that is told to them, so maybe one day they will wake up and leave the ancient nonsense behind.
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