Was human created as a moral being?
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07-02-2012, 09:32 AM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2012 09:33 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(07-02-2012 09:29 AM)Zat Wrote:  
(07-02-2012 09:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(07-02-2012 08:53 AM)Zat Wrote:  KC, you contradicted yourself at least 3 time in what I quoted!

I'm confused. How so?

Let's take it one at a time.

If he is omniscient then he can not be omnipotent because, if he knows everything that will unfold in the future, then he can not change a darn thing, so he can not be omnipotent.

The reverse is equally true: if he is omnipotent then he can not be omniscient because omnipotent means that he can change his mind and alter the course of the universe to what he had not intended before, but then it means that he wasn't omniscient to begin with.

And, if he is omnipresent then he can not be omnipotent because he has saturated the universe, elementary particle by elementary particle down to quarks and strings, unable to change/destroy anything without changing/destroying part if his being and I doubt he would want to do that.

Apart from these minor quibbles, what you said makes perfect sense! Tongue

This is going back to the infinite/finite discussion we had... which, my brain is still recovering from.

If God is infinite, He can be all these things at once; defying logic.
(07-02-2012 09:08 AM)Denicio Wrote:  
(07-02-2012 08:31 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  God's morals are His own



I've seen godz resume. He has no morals.

Unless of course we are defining morals as:
Genocide
Murder
Abortion
Rape
Incest
slavery
.........do i really have to list ALL the stuff that WE call moral and HE violates?

Well... yeah... but that's kind of my point. Those are human morals. Our standard of morality can't be held to His.

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07-02-2012, 09:37 AM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(07-02-2012 09:32 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  If God is infinite, He can be all these things at once; defying logic.

This reminds me of another joke:

Guy goes home unexpectedly, finding his wife in bed with another man.

When he confronts her, she asks, indignantly:

"Whom do you believe -- me or you eyes!?"

Big Grin
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07-02-2012, 09:52 AM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(07-02-2012 06:36 AM)LordiDraken Wrote:  The topic says it all. I wondered, was man really created with morality? I mean, you all know the story about the forbidden apple tree, so I might say that it indicates man was truly created without morals. You know, Eva had to take the morality for humans with a little help from a snake.

So, I might say we were created as creatures who only trust their instincts and feelings, rather than being rational.

No. Man was not created, man evolved. And along with that, morality evolved.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-02-2012, 09:57 AM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(07-02-2012 09:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  No. Man was not created, man evolved. And along with that, morality evolved.

More cats and dogs sleeping together, Chas. This agreeing thing has got to stop.

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07-02-2012, 10:07 AM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(07-02-2012 09:32 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  If God is infinite, He can be all these things at once; defying logic.

One more quibble, KC.

god may be able to defy logic, but you can't because that is how your brain is hardwired (one reason why you asked me to explain to you how you contradicted yourself).

The only way you can believe in all that nonsense (a collection of contradictions and irrationality) is by compartmentalizing your brain, as many of us have pointed it out to you before.

One compartment is perfectly sane, rational, living in this world like the rest of us.

The other compartment is jumbled, irrational, saturated by meaningless and undefined concepts, half of them from ancient myth full of holes, omissions, evil things and contradictions, the other half is attempts by people like you to explain the unexplainable.

My question to you now is: WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS?

You are intelligent enough to know that what I (and many of us) are saying is true, yet you persist in your form of schizophrenia.

What's in it for you?

Is it cowardice, fear of death, fear of life, fear of futility?

Damn if I will ever understand religious people -- people who are not stupid as a lump of lead and still corrupt their own 'god-given' minds! Tongue

PS. Never mind those who want to corrupt any other minds they come in contact with! Rolleyes
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07-02-2012, 10:12 AM
 
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(07-02-2012 09:32 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Well... yeah... but that's kind of my point. Those are human morals. Our standard of morality can't be held to His.

Imagine a cult of Jeff Dahmer. They adore and worship the Jeff that was a good worker, said nice things to people, helped the elderly, went out of his way on thanksgiving to help the homeless...BUT he's got this other side that is totally opposite to everything we hold as moral and ethical.

Thats kinda where you are at with this 'apology' you give.

God created us in his image, set the benchmark for morals and then pisses all over them with his ACTIONS. Cant you see this? Your journey down that river in Egypt has you dismissing and ignoring the measure of your god. You just brush it aside cuz you got jesus.

In essence, you are the guy in the crowd telling everyone that Dahmer's ways were misunderstood and he was a good guy.

You have given us a brief description of your past life as an Agnostic Atheist..so to speak. I kinda dont buy that. Were you truly 'learned' in the way of the force? How well did you know the bible? You said that you'd make fun of religious folk. See, thats not really how Atheist 'roll'. We generally dont mock and scoff, but use the bible as its own worst enemy. (occasionally I'll get to the mocking stage when the person ((abdelz/egorZ)) has proven to be a crusader). We see the natural world for what it is, and no more.

We are all still getting to know you. If i were saved, by your self-definition, I'd just have called you "lost", not an atheist. Not trying to call you out, but even as a full blown Humanist/Atheist i never really felt you understood what atheism is about.

Your argument that Gods morals are not ours is an insult to humanity.
Think about it, a god that supposedly created us and our morals simply cant follow them. Pretty much a textbook Hypocrite!

Certainly not worthy of praise.

D
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07-02-2012, 10:32 AM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(07-02-2012 09:57 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(07-02-2012 09:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  No. Man was not created, man evolved. And along with that, morality evolved.

More cats and dogs sleeping together, Chas. This agreeing thing has got to stop.

This, too, shall pass. Angel

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07-02-2012, 11:17 AM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2012 11:24 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(07-02-2012 10:12 AM)Denicio Wrote:  Imagine a cult of Jeff Dahmer. They adore and worship the Jeff that was a good worker, said nice things to people, helped the elderly, went out of his way on thanksgiving to help the homeless...BUT he's got this other side that is totally opposite to everything we hold as moral and ethical.

Thats kinda where you are at with this 'apology' you give.

Not really... Dahmer was a human. Even in your communication with me, we are under the assumption that God is supernatural. If God is not human, He shouldn't be held to human standards.

Quote:God created us in his image, set the benchmark for morals and then pisses all over them with his ACTIONS. Cant you see this? Your journey down that river in Egypt has you dismissing and ignoring the measure of your god. You just brush it aside cuz you got jesus.

Morals evolved. But, even so, our moral code isn't the same as God's. If God is infinite and we are finite, our morals are not a standard for Him; regardless if He gave them to us or not. He is completely sovereign.

Quote:In essence, you are the guy in the crowd telling everyone that Dahmer's ways were misunderstood and he was a good guy.

No. That's you putting words in my mouth and taking things out of context.

Quote:You have given us a brief description of your past life as an Agnostic Atheist..so to speak. I kinda dont buy that.

You're free to think that.

Quote:Were you truly 'learned' in the way of the force? How well did you know the bible?

I grew up in church... went to Sunday School... went to Vacation Bible School... was taught the Bible... attended a Baptist school for 7 years where we were taught Bible every year... attended a Baptist college for 5 years where we were taught Bible every year... so yes... I knew the Bible.

Quote:You said that you'd make fun of religious folk. See, thats not really how Atheist 'roll'.

I've said that I was more of an agnostic than an atheist. I abhorred the Christian God, so that's why I attacked people that believed in Him.

Quote: We generally dont mock and scoff, but use the bible as its own worst enemy. (occasionally I'll get to the mocking stage when the person ((abdelz/egorZ)) has proven to be a crusader). We see the natural world for what it is, and no more.

I didn't say I was right in what I did. I just did it.

Quote:We are all still getting to know you. If i were saved, by your self-definition, I'd just have called you "lost", not an atheist. Not trying to call you out, but even as a full blown Humanist/Atheist i never really felt you understood what atheism is about.

No. I know what it's about. I never claimed to be an atheist, though. I was an agnostic atheist. I highly doubted that there was a God, but if there was one, I didn't want anything to do with Him. I attacked Christians because I considered it fun. I knew more than they did it was easy to tear their beliefs apart.

Quote:Your argument that Gods morals are not ours is an insult to humanity.
Think about it, a god that supposedly created us and our morals simply cant follow them. Pretty much a textbook Hypocrite!

Not true. Again, morals evolved based on empathy and selfishness. God isn't held to a human standard because humans were created to sin. God cannot sin, so His morality is His own.
(07-02-2012 10:07 AM)Zat Wrote:  
(07-02-2012 09:32 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  If God is infinite, He can be all these things at once; defying logic.

One more quibble, KC.

god may be able to defy logic, but you can't because that is how your brain is hardwired (one reason why you asked me to explain to you how you contradicted yourself).

The only way you can believe in all that nonsense (a collection of contradictions and irrationality) is by compartmentalizing your brain, as many of us have pointed it out to you before.

One compartment is perfectly sane, rational, living in this world like the rest of us.

The other compartment is jumbled, irrational, saturated by meaningless and undefined concepts, half of them from ancient myth full of holes, omissions, evil things and contradictions, the other half is attempts by people like you to explain the unexplainable.

My question to you now is: WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS?

You are intelligent enough to know that what I (and many of us) are saying is true, yet you persist in your form of schizophrenia.

What's in it for you?

Is it cowardice, fear of death, fear of life, fear of futility?

Damn if I will ever understand religious people -- people who are not stupid as a lump of lead and still corrupt their own 'god-given' minds! Tongue

PS. Never mind those who want to corrupt any other minds they come in contact with! Rolleyes

hahahaha...

Nah man... it's cool.

But, the simple truth is: I believe in God. That's a truth that I can't rid myself of... no matter how hard I try. In fact, the harder I try, the more convinced I am of God.

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07-02-2012, 11:27 AM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(07-02-2012 11:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  But, the simple truth is: I believe in God. That's a truth that I can't rid myself of... no matter how hard I try. In fact, the harder I try, the more convinced I am of God.

Sounds like the Bastard got you in a headlock! Angry
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07-02-2012, 11:29 AM
 
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(07-02-2012 11:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  God isn't held to an human standard because humans were created to sin.

Wow and Well.......

Wow..... that you'd even accept that as remotely acceptable (and so much for design arguments, i know you dont buy them..FWIW).

Well... pretty much sums it all up.

I do appreciate your honest answers. Kudos!

I know we are mincing words but your previous life and what you believed you were..i know it works for you, but i'd go so far to say you were never Agnostic or Atheist. You simply sound like you were just mad at god.
For me (and many others) its not about 'wanting anything to do with him'. Speaking for myself and having been where you have been......there is no HIM to hate or even worry about. He's a character in a story. No more no less.

Now, your acrobatics around his morals versus our morals is pretty laughable and you know it. Pretty sad when i am more moral than god, and i am just an average dude.

You say his morality is his own. Please demonstrate his morality to us that are not plugged into the trinity.

D
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