Was human created as a moral being?
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07-02-2012, 11:34 AM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(07-02-2012 11:29 AM)Denicio Wrote:  Wow and Well.......

Wow..... that you'd even accept that as remotely acceptable (and so much for design arguments, i know you dont buy them..FWIW).

Well... pretty much sums it all up.

I do appreciate your honest answers. Kudos!

Why is this shocking to you? I thought we've already discussed this, plus, what you know about my theology, this really shouldn't be surprising.

Quote:I know we are mincing words but your previous life and what you believed you were..i know it works for you, but i'd go so far to say you were never Agnostic or Atheist. You simply sound like you were just mad at god.
For me (and many others) its not about 'wanting anything to do with him'. Speaking for myself and having been where you have been......there is no HIM to hate or even worry about. He's a character in a story. No more no less.

Again, you're free to think that. But, that's not what I believed.

Quote:Now, your acrobatics around his morals versus our morals is pretty laughable and you know it. Pretty sad when i am more moral than god, and i am just an average dude.

Again, you are comparing Him to HUMAN morality.

Quote:You say his morality is his own. Please demonstrate his morality to us that are not plugged into the trinity.

Sorry... I don't know what you're asking : /

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07-02-2012, 12:19 PM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
We're just smart apes. Aminals don't have morals. We invent moral concepts and think that they are real and living concepts. We even invent gods and atribute the morals to divine commandment.

Live the morality of the Nobels. Nobels are good, those that are not nobels are bad. I do what I do in life and judgement on my actions are the problems of others.

There's some red meat for the theists.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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07-02-2012, 12:27 PM
 
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(07-02-2012 11:34 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(07-02-2012 11:29 AM)Denicio Wrote:  Wow and Well.......

Wow..... that you'd even accept that as remotely acceptable (and so much for design arguments, i know you don't buy them..FWIW).

Well... pretty much sums it all up.

I do appreciate your honest answers. Kudos!

Why is this shocking to you? I thought we've already discussed this, plus, what you know about my theology, this really shouldn't be surprising.

Quote:I know we are mincing words but your previous life and what you believed you were..i know it works for you, but I'd go so far to say you were never Agnostic or Atheist. You simply sound like you were just mad at god.
For me (and many others) its not about 'wanting anything to do with him'. Speaking for myself and having been where you have been......there is no HIM to hate or even worry about. He's a character in a story. No more no less.

Again, you're free to think that. But, that's not what I believed.

Quote:Now, your acrobatics around his morals versus our morals is pretty laughable and you know it. Pretty sad when i am more moral than god, and i am just an average dude.

Again, you are comparing Him to HUMAN morality.

Quote:You say his morality is his own. Please demonstrate his morality to us that are not plugged into the trinity.

Sorry... I don't know what you're asking : /

You have gone out of your way to say HUMAN morality and that he's got his own set of morals. Can you give us Book, Chapter and Verse descriptions as to what exactly are gods morals?
Or are they concepts that cant be uttered by human mouths or spelled with human spelling...basically voodoo hocus pocus that we are unable to comprehend?

To me, it seems VERY short sighted for an ALL POWERFUL creator to bark out human morals and not even meet them half way. Yeah Yeah, he's got his own..which should be LIGHT YEARS better...SMACKDOWN better than ours...so as a minimum he should be able to dance all over OUR HUMAN morals and then demonstrate his Godly Morals as the ultimate TRUMP card. OUR morals should be a no brainer for him.

D
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07-02-2012, 12:32 PM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(07-02-2012 08:38 AM)Zat Wrote:  
(07-02-2012 08:31 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  God's morals stand on His own laurels and cannot be judged by us because they serve the purpose of His plan.

Summary:
We evolved morals.
God's morals are His own.

Very convenient (for god).

I wish I were a god so nobody could judge me! Big Grin

yeh, it seems god has that "do Isay,not as Ido" thing going doesn't it lol

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07-02-2012, 12:34 PM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(07-02-2012 12:27 PM)Denicio Wrote:  You have gone out of your way to say HUMAN morality and that he's got his own set of morals. Can you give us Book, Chapter and Verse descriptions as to what exactly are gods morals?
Or are they concepts that cant be uttered by human mouths or spelled with human spelling...basically voodoo hocus pocus that we are unable to comprehend?

To me, it seems VERY short sighted for an ALL POWERFUL creator to bark out human morals and not even meet them half way. Yeah Yeah, he's got his own..which should be LIGHT YEARS better...SMACKDOWN better than ours...so as a minimum he should be able to dance all over OUR HUMAN morals and then demonstrate his Godly Morals as the ultimate TRUMP card. OUR morals should be a no brainer for him.

D

His predestine plan creates rifts in what we think is "morally good". Immoral and heinous acts had to happen because of the predestined plan God had.

We're not infinite. We can't view the entire scope of what God is doing. An infinite being's morality cannot come into question when it concerns finite matters.

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07-02-2012, 12:43 PM
 
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(07-02-2012 12:34 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(07-02-2012 12:27 PM)Denicio Wrote:  You have gone out of your way to say HUMAN morality and that he's got his own set of morals. Can you give us Book, Chapter and Verse descriptions as to what exactly are gods morals?
Or are they concepts that cant be uttered by human mouths or spelled with human spelling...basically voodoo hocus pocus that we are unable to comprehend?

To me, it seems VERY short sighted for an ALL POWERFUL creator to bark out human morals and not even meet them half way. Yeah Yeah, he's got his own..which should be LIGHT YEARS better...SMACKDOWN better than ours...so as a minimum he should be able to dance all over OUR HUMAN morals and then demonstrate his Godly Morals as the ultimate TRUMP card. OUR morals should be a no brainer for him.

D

His predestine plan creates rifts in what we think is "morally good". Immoral and heinous acts had to happen because of the predestined plan God had.

We're not infinite. We can't view the entire scope of what God is doing. An infinite being's morality cannot come into question when it concerns finite matters.

Sounds like KC is reading from the SiFi translation. Rift's? Who knew the Southern Baptists have splintered into a Star Trek denomination?

If a god set forth with a predestine plan that had mass genocide, then maybe before putting the quater in the game and hitting the start button he should have rethought the whole cosmic game...............
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08-02-2012, 08:37 AM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(07-02-2012 12:27 PM)Denicio Wrote:  You have gone out of your way to say HUMAN morality and that he's got his own set of morals. Can you give us Book, Chapter and Verse descriptions as to what exactly are gods morals?

Actually, this was an excellent question and I, for one, would love to see KC's answer.

If there is one?

Big Grin
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08-02-2012, 08:59 AM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
Jeremy, I'm guessing you'll probably say something like, "You know I don't believe that," or "You've taken that out of context," but an impression comes to my mind as I read:
Quote:His predestine plan creates rifts in what we think is "morally good". Immoral and heinous acts had to happen because of the predestined plan God had.

The impression I have is that predestination is your god. In your message, you really put more faith in predestination than in God. A fundie will answer tough question with: "Well, God is God so he can do that if he so chooses and I'll blindly follow."
Your answer have a subtle difference: "Well his predestined plan says so, therefore god has to do heinous things because of the plan." Huh.Huh Again, I know you'll say it's not really what you're saying, but it sounds to me as if the Plan is bigger than your god. Everything defense you give goes back to the plan. Why isn't Genesis true in a modern sense? Because of the Plan. Why did god kill all those folks in the desert by sending snakes and opening up the earth and then telling his people to kill their own people? Because of the Plan. Why would god inspire biblical texts that say, "Happy are those who dash infants against sharp rocks?" Again, the Plan says to do it.

I know you're not intending to worship The Plan, but I wonder if your own self introspection will see what I see the way The Plan gets glorified and thus deified in your answers. It's like your theology has become an idol that you won't stop worshiping.

Just a friendly thought.

Eric

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08-02-2012, 09:05 AM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(08-02-2012 08:59 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  it sounds to me as if the Plan is bigger than your god.

Hey!

This is the answer.

Plan is god's creator and god has to obey what his creator laid out for him.

Brilliant!

I knew god had to have a creator, because that is the only reason he exists (somebody had to create the universe, right?) but, till now, I did not know what to call god's creator .

Now I do.

His name is PLAN
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08-02-2012, 09:26 AM
 
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(08-02-2012 08:59 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Jeremy, I'm guessing you'll probably say something like, "You know I don't believe that," or "You've taken that out of context," but an impression comes to my mind as I read:
Quote:His predestine plan creates rifts in what we think is "morally good". Immoral and heinous acts had to happen because of the predestined plan God had.

The impression I have is that predestination is your god. In your message, you really put more faith in predestination than in God. A fundie will answer tough question with: "Well, God is God so he can do that if he so chooses and I'll blindly follow."
Your answer have a subtle difference: "Well his predestined plan says so, therefore god has to do heinous things because of the plan." Huh.Huh Again, I know you'll say it's not really what you're saying, but it sounds to me as if the Plan is bigger than your god. Everything defense you give goes back to the plan. Why isn't Genesis true in a modern sense? Because of the Plan. Why did god kill all those folks in the desert by sending snakes and opening up the earth and then telling his people to kill their own people? Because of the Plan. Why would god inspire biblical texts that say, "Happy are those who dash infants against sharp rocks?" Again, the Plan says to do it.

I know you're not intending to worship The Plan, but I wonder if your own self introspection will see what I see the way The Plan gets glorified and thus deified in your answers. It's like your theology has become an idol that you won't stop worshiping.

Just a friendly thought.

Eric

I had a catholic neighbor years ago want to discuss religious things. When we got to JC's mom, Mary, he said he "does not need permission on things he owns". I was speechless. Owned?

The Traditional Self-Deprecating, I-am-Not-Worthy, I am owned by the Massa , little self worth phenomenon is truly telling. Folks that ACCEPT that they are lower than dirt and need to grovel at the feet of ANYONE is telling.
This theme is in the sermons and songs.

Its not that i think 'i am THE king shit' but i do have a solid 'self worth' opinion of my self. I am not marred or scarred because of someone else's original sin, or the sin of my great grandfather, or grand dad or father. I am my own man accountable for my own actions. To willingly 'bear the iniquity' of anyone else is simply borrowing trouble.
I once lived with this zero net worth of myself and was only 'whole' with some imaginary pals. I witnessed and converted should based on this concept.

The acceptance of being 'owned' is pure insanity.
KC's predetermined god plan works TOWARDS a happy ending but slaughtered millions in the process.
Maybe his gods morals are not written in code in a book, but are demonstrated by his actions in ways we cant understand. Sacrifice millions to safe a few thousands.
He created WE pawns on the chess board, so there is nothing immoral about destroying us. I am trying to use my old mind to make the pieces of this puzzle fit...and it still sounds like we are in the hands of a completely incompetent god.

I just don't see anything worthy of praise. Its just that simple.
If KC's god saw the path his predetermined plan would take, why would he not stop it and create a new plan?
I know, i know...we dont know the mind of god. Sigh~

D
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