Was human created as a moral being?
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08-02-2012, 09:31 AM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(08-02-2012 09:26 AM)Denicio Wrote:  The acceptance of being 'owned' is pure insanity.
KC's predetermined god plan works TOWARDS a happy ending but slaughtered millions in the process.
Maybe his gods morals are not written in code in a book, but are demonstrated by his actions in ways we cant understand. Sacrifice millions to safe a few thousands.
He created WE pawns on the chess board, so there is nothing immoral about destroying us. I am trying to use my old mind to make the pieces of this puzzle fit...and it still sounds like we are in the hands of a completely incompetent god.

I just don't see anything worthy of praise. Its just that simple.
If KC's god saw the path his predetermined plan would take, why would he not stop it and create a new plan?
I know, i know...we dont know the mind of god. Sigh~

D

I'm pretty sure this is labeled in the philosophical vernacular as: The Ends Justify The Means.

Didn't ever think God was such a Machiavellian, but now that I reflect back, that's a pretty good description.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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08-02-2012, 09:32 AM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
What are values? Why does man need them?

“Value” is that which one acts to gain and/or keep. The concept “value” is not a primary; it presupposes an answer to the question: of value to whom and for what? It presupposes an entity capable of acting to achieve a goal in the face of an alternative. Where no alternative exists, no goals and no values are possible.

Only a living entity can have goals or can originate them. And it is only a living organism that has the capacity for self-generated, goal-directed action. On the physical level, the functions of all living organisms, from the simplest to the most complex—from the nutritive function in the single cell of an amoeba to the blood circulation in the body of a man—are actions generated by the organism itself and directed to a single goal: the maintenance of the organism’s life.

What, then, are the right goals for man to pursue? What are the values his survival requires? That is the question to be answered by the science of ethics. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why man needs a code of ethics.

Ethics is not a mystic fantasy—nor a social convention—nor a dispensable, subjective luxury, to be switched or discarded in any emergency. Ethics is an objective, metaphysical necessity of man’s survival—not by the grace of the supernatural nor of your neighbors nor of your whims, but by the grace of reality and the nature of life.

Since reason is man’s basic means of survival, that which is proper to the life of a rational being is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys it is the evil.

Just as life is an end in itself, so every living human being is an end in himself, not the means to the ends or the welfare of others—and, therefore, that man must live for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. To live for his own sake means that the achievement of his own happiness is man’s highest moral purpose.

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08-02-2012, 09:55 AM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(08-02-2012 08:37 AM)Zat Wrote:  
(07-02-2012 12:27 PM)Denicio Wrote:  You have gone out of your way to say HUMAN morality and that he's got his own set of morals. Can you give us Book, Chapter and Verse descriptions as to what exactly are gods morals?

Actually, this was an excellent question and I, for one, would love to see KC's answer.

If there is one?

Big Grin

Romans 9:14-24
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED [k]THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel [l]for honorable use and another [m]for common use? 22 [n]What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

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08-02-2012, 09:55 AM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(07-02-2012 08:51 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(07-02-2012 08:47 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(07-02-2012 08:41 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  But I accept that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, therefore, His morality cannot be judged.

This is my biggest problem with you believing what you believe. It's the epitome of delusion and I wish you could read your thoughts with an outsider's eye. Knowing you through the internet, I know you to be a good person who always seeks to do what is right for your self and other people. Your morals are better than the Bible's description of your god. It makes me sad that you would defend a mass murderer as being incapable of being judged for his atrocities to the universe.

I'm not defending His actions. But, I can't speak against them.

His plan takes precedence over humanity.

Annnndd that's a big part of why I can never be a Christian. I can't just say God's morals are beyond reproach because people are just puppets or peons to him. His actions as described in the Bible are inconsistent with a God that loves his creation. Plus, unless I'm "chosen" I have no reason to believe anyway. I just can't put humanity in a place of meaninglessness in order to excuse the genocides of a petty, childish and malevolent God. So, even if there were evidence that God existed, I could not worship him.

Better without God, and happier too.
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08-02-2012, 10:01 AM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(08-02-2012 08:59 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Jeremy, I'm guessing you'll probably say something like, "You know I don't believe that," or "You've taken that out of context," but an impression comes to my mind as I read:
Quote:His predestine plan creates rifts in what we think is "morally good". Immoral and heinous acts had to happen because of the predestined plan God had.

The impression I have is that predestination is your god. In your message, you really put more faith in predestination than in God. A fundie will answer tough question with: "Well, God is God so he can do that if he so chooses and I'll blindly follow."
Your answer have a subtle difference: "Well his predestined plan says so, therefore god has to do heinous things because of the plan." Huh.Huh Again, I know you'll say it's not really what you're saying, but it sounds to me as if the Plan is bigger than your god. Everything defense you give goes back to the plan. Why isn't Genesis true in a modern sense? Because of the Plan. Why did god kill all those folks in the desert by sending snakes and opening up the earth and then telling his people to kill their own people? Because of the Plan. Why would god inspire biblical texts that say, "Happy are those who dash infants against sharp rocks?" Again, the Plan says to do it.

I know you're not intending to worship The Plan, but I wonder if your own self introspection will see what I see the way The Plan gets glorified and thus deified in your answers. It's like your theology has become an idol that you won't stop worshiping.

Just a friendly thought.

Eric

Without the confines of context, you can bastardize and make my beliefs say whatever you want it to say; however, that's not what I believe.

I'm constantly asked "why?" Why did God do this? Why did God do that? I've answered "I don't know. I'm not God." But, I do at least make an attempt to try and explain.

The evidence of why points to His predestined plan. He is not a servant to it because He designed it and laid it out from the beginning. God can't be subservient to Himself because He cannot deny Himself. His perfect plan was created by Himself and He follows it because it was designed through omnipotence and omniscient.

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08-02-2012, 10:08 AM
 
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(08-02-2012 10:01 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  His perfect plan was created by Himself and He follows it because it was designed through omnipotence and omniscient.

KC i am not trying to pick on you brother. But dude, that sentence...sounds like a Plan of Action of Crazy Axe Murder. AKA... Micky and Mallory Knox talk.

"I have SEEN my PERFECT plan before its unleashed, and in ITS perfection it requires an extraordinary amount of death at my own hands and its perfect and i will carry out this PERFECT plan"

Reminds me of when Private Pyle went nuts in full metal jacket and was talking to his rifle as he's cleaning it..."Perfect" so the "Action is clean".

The more YOU describe YOUR version of god, the more I'll take the typical Christian god behind door number 3.
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08-02-2012, 10:20 AM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(08-02-2012 10:08 AM)Denicio Wrote:  
(08-02-2012 10:01 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  His perfect plan was created by Himself and He follows it because it was designed through omnipotence and omniscient.

KC i am not trying to pick on you brother. But dude, that sentence...sounds like a Plan of Action of Crazy Axe Murder. AKA... Micky and Mallory Knox talk.

"I have SEEN my PERFECT plan before its unleashed, and in ITS perfection it requires an extraordinary amount of death at my own hands and its perfect and i will carry out this PERFECT plan"

Reminds me of when Private Pyle went nuts in full metal jacket and was talking to his rifle as he's cleaning it..."Perfect" so the "Action is clean".

The more YOU describe YOUR version of god, the more I'll take the typical Christian god behind door number 3.

But, again, you keep basing this on the assumption that God is limited. If God is unlimited, then the plan is truly perfect.

You're analogies are based on humans. God transcends humanity.

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08-02-2012, 10:22 AM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(08-02-2012 10:01 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  But, I do at least make an attempt to try and explain.

That's you mistake, KC, trying to explain the unexplainable.

Trying to use some verbal acrobatics that is meant to sound like reasoning, using logic, trying to apply to a totally irrational and illogical (some of your own words) situation.

If god is above logic (as you repeatedly said), why try to apply logic to his actions, however tortured that logic sounds to sane minds.

Sorry, KC, you can't have it both ways.

If god is above logic, don't try to explain it. Rolleyes
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08-02-2012, 10:57 AM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(08-02-2012 09:55 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(08-02-2012 08:37 AM)Zat Wrote:  
(07-02-2012 12:27 PM)Denicio Wrote:  You have gone out of your way to say HUMAN morality and that he's got his own set of morals. Can you give us Book, Chapter and Verse descriptions as to what exactly are gods morals?

Actually, this was an excellent question and I, for one, would love to see KC's answer.

If there is one?

Big Grin

Romans 9:14-24
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED [k]THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel [l]for honorable use and another [m]for common use? 22 [n]What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

That god sure sounds like an egomaniacal dickhead.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-02-2012, 11:04 AM
RE: Was human created as a moral being?
(08-02-2012 10:22 AM)Zat Wrote:  
(08-02-2012 10:01 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  But, I do at least make an attempt to try and explain.

That's you mistake, KC, trying to explain the unexplainable.

Trying to use some verbal acrobatics that is meant to sound like reasoning, using logic, trying to apply to a totally irrational and illogical (some of your own words) situation.

If god is above logic (as you repeatedly said), why try to apply logic to his actions, however tortured that logic sounds to sane minds.

Sorry, KC, you can't have it both ways.

If god is above logic, don't try to explain it. Rolleyes

Then people need to stop asking me <_<

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