Was my response to theist too harsh?
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22-04-2016, 05:36 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 05:02 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-04-2016 01:53 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  You are absolutely spot on.

As Richard Dawkins says, "Would you ever speak of a baby's political beliefs? Hannah is a socialist baby, Mark a conservative. Who would ever dream of saying such a thing? What would you say if you read a demographic article which said something like this: “One in every three children born today is a Kantian Neo-platonist child. If the birth rate trends continue, Existentialist Positivists will be outnumbered by 2030.” Never mind the nonsensical names of philosophical schools of thought just invented. I deliberately chose surreal names so as not to distract from the real point. Religion is the one exception we all make to the rule: don’t label children with the opinions of their parents."

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It's funny that the type of folks here who argued that we don't know whether other animals have contemplated their existence, where they came from, seem to confidently assert that infants lack a belief.

Shouldn't we just be lacking a belief as to whether they do or do not believe in God/s, for the sake of being consistent.

Consistency, eh?

Shouldn't we just be lacking a belief as to whether the Neanderthals did or didn't believe in quantum computing?

Edit: oops, I'm doing the consistency thing wrong... There's evidence for existence and quantum computing. I guess you're doing it wrong too then.
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22-04-2016, 05:52 AM
Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 05:36 AM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  
(22-04-2016 05:02 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's funny that the type of folks here who argued that we don't know whether other animals have contemplated their existence, where they came from, seem to confidently assert that infants lack a belief.

Shouldn't we just be lacking a belief as to whether they do or do not believe in God/s, for the sake of being consistent.

Consistency, eh?

Shouldn't we just be lacking a belief as to whether the Neanderthals did or didn't believe in quantum computing?

Edit: oops, I'm doing the consistency thing wrong... There's evidence for existence and quantum computing. I guess you're doing it wrong too then.

Consistency questions:

So is there evidence that infants lack a belief in God, or do we lack the evidence to confirm one way or the other?

Are humans the only animals able to believe in God/s, that they were part of some created order?

Are humans the only animals able to contemplate their existence, where they came from, or do we lack the evidence to confirm one way or the other as to whether we're unique in this regard?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-04-2016, 06:13 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
Like religion and beliefs in general, babies are not born with snake bites & injected venom in their bloodstream.

Babies are not born knowing math. Nor do they have any notion about the rings of Saturn.

As adults, we inform children and sometimes we lie to them. Sometimes we pass along the best evidence that science can offer and other times, we simply can't tell them the full truth because they aren't old enough to understand.

I often wonder how long a religious person would have to live before they are old enough to understand.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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22-04-2016, 06:20 AM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2016 06:39 AM by onlinebiker.)
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
I've said this before here on the forum ----

ALL children are born atheist. Any religion you pick up along the way is simply regional contamination.

.....

That is - you'll most likely pick up the religion that's prevalent in the area you're born. It's pretty unlikely (and never observed) for someone to spontaneously "become" some religion that they are unexposed to.


Show me an aborigine who suddenly and spontaneously becomes a Christian, Muslim, or Hindu without contact to the outside world -----and I'll concede that you might be on to a "true" religion.

Until then -- STFU -- and keep your stupid superstitions to yourself..................

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22-04-2016, 06:36 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 05:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-04-2016 05:36 AM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  Consistency, eh?

Shouldn't we just be lacking a belief as to whether the Neanderthals did or didn't believe in quantum computing?

Edit: oops, I'm doing the consistency thing wrong... There's evidence for existence and quantum computing. I guess you're doing it wrong too then.

Consistency questions:

So is there evidence that infants lack a belief in God, or do we lack the evidence to confirm one way or the other?

Are humans the only animals able to believe in God/s, that they were part of some created order?

Are humans the only animals able to contemplate their existence, where they came from, or do we lack the evidence to confirm one way or the other as to whether we're unique in this regard?

Another quote from Richard Dawkins.......
Quote:If you have a faith, it is statistically overwhelmingly likely that it is the same faith as your parents and grandparents had. No doubt soaring cathedrals, stirring music, moving stories and parables, help a bit. But by far the most important variable determining your religion is the accident of birth. The convictions that you so passionately believe would have been a completely different, and largely contradictory, set of convictions, if only you had happened to be born in a different place. Epidemiology, not evidence.

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22-04-2016, 06:52 AM
Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 06:36 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  
(22-04-2016 05:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Consistency questions:

So is there evidence that infants lack a belief in God, or do we lack the evidence to confirm one way or the other?

Are humans the only animals able to believe in God/s, that they were part of some created order?

Are humans the only animals able to contemplate their existence, where they came from, or do we lack the evidence to confirm one way or the other as to whether we're unique in this regard?

Another quote from Richard Dawkins.......
Quote:If you have a faith, it is statistically overwhelmingly likely that it is the same faith as your parents and grandparents had. No doubt soaring cathedrals, stirring music, moving stories and parables, help a bit. But by far the most important variable determining your religion is the accident of birth. The convictions that you so passionately believe would have been a completely different, and largely contradictory, set of convictions, if only you had happened to be born in a different place. Epidemiology, not evidence.


Theism doesn't equal being religious. You can believe in a God, but not subscribe to any particular religion, such as nones. Nearly all of human history, of human civilization has found man believing in a God/s /Higher power. The large majority of those who fail to identify with any particular religion, are not particularly inclined to atheism either, so appealing to indoctrination as the reason for this, is likely not to be the case.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-04-2016, 07:14 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 06:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Theism doesn't equal being religious. You can believe in a God, but not subscribe to any particular religion, such as nones. Nearly all of human history, of human civilization has found man believing in a God/s /Higher power. The large majority of those who fail to identify with any particular religion, are not particularly inclined to atheism either, so appealing to indoctrination as the reason for this, is likely not to be the case.

You're clutching at straws here.............as has been pointed out earlier, infants are not self-aware. It is as they grow older they acquire the beliefs of their parents (whether religious in the sense of organised religion or theism in the sense of the belief in supernatural supreme beings). Indoctrinating children in societal and cultural values is what parents do. We want our children to ascribe to those values and beliefs..........kids only start to work it out for themselves once they attain a certain intellectual maturity.

So whether you want to call it theism or religion it amounts to the same thing as far as the indoctrination is concerned.

The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike
Excreta Tauri Sapientam Fulgeat (The excrement of the bull causes wisdom to flee)
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22-04-2016, 07:28 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
‘We are all born atheist’ is an incomplete phrase.

‘We are all born atheists and anarchists’ is the correct, and consistent, phrase.

Does Dawkins have a problem when the six year old is indoctrinated by his parents into secular authoritarianism (socialism, communist totalitarianism, unionism, fascism…) where the priests have simply been replaced by the State’s regulators, law writers and enforcers? Because those people also believe that with their State, or doG, given powers they are able to make the lives of the peasants much more meaningful.

Evolution has given us the capacity to not only think in the transcendent, but to transfer the powers of transcendent beings to humans. Once that power has been transferred, it is now easy, and very convenient, to condemn the priest.
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22-04-2016, 07:49 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
What about feral children? Not just the ones who are raised by animals, but also the ones that were isolated, locked in a room, alone, with little to no human contact during a vital time of behavioral development, and thus aren't 'tainted?'

They don't seem to ascribe to any particular faith, nor do they seem to speak of any revelations about a god 'if' they ever learn to speak, unless taught to.

Ignorance is not to be ignored.

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22-04-2016, 07:50 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 05:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-04-2016 05:36 AM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  Consistency, eh?

Shouldn't we just be lacking a belief as to whether the Neanderthals did or didn't believe in quantum computing?

Edit: oops, I'm doing the consistency thing wrong... There's evidence for existence and quantum computing. I guess you're doing it wrong too then.

Consistency questions:

So is there evidence that infants lack a belief in God, or do we lack the evidence to confirm one way or the other?

Well, the fact that places around the world with largely atheist populations tend to produce atheist offspring would be evidence against.
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