Was my response to theist too harsh?
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25-04-2016, 09:42 PM (This post was last modified: 25-04-2016 09:59 PM by popsthebuilder.)
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
WhiskeyDebates,

Yeah, about six months ago I hadn't read the new testament yet. What? Do you think time stopped since then?

I'm reading what you have stated now.

Moses is fictional according to you. Interesting. Not to relevent but interesting.

Oh neat, you are aware of time passing. Good for you!

Ephesians 6 (KJV) - ኤፌሶን
5: Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
6: Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
7: With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Ephesians 6 (KJV) - ኤፌሶን
8: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
9: And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

First is speaks to servants not slaves. Servants can be seen as employees today and the bosses the masters. Also it plainly states that the master should hold the same regard for the servant as the servant regards the master.

I would like to add that someone can be a servant or slave to nearly anything. If you treat your boss or higher up with contempt or dishonesty you would likely face repercussions of some sort. If a boss treats an employee bad then they too would most likely face some negative backlash, such as the employee leaving or retaliating in some way.

1 Timothy 6 (KJV) - 1 ጢሞቴዎስ
1: Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
2: And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. 1 Timothy 6 (KJV) - 1 ጢሞቴዎስ
3: If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4: He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5: Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 1 Timothy 6 (KJV) - 1 ጢሞቴዎስ
6: But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7: For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8: And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9: But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. 1 Timothy 6 (KJV) - 1 ጢሞቴዎስ
10: For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11: But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

It seems to be stating to be holy in all things, to avoid contentious thoughts and things, not worrying about material gain, but doing right by all for the sake of all. Surely you don't see it that way. I cannot excuse the fact that slavery isn't abolished. But servant and master are to be equal in Christ and in help to one another for the others sake. That isn't really the conventional definition of slavery.


Luke 12 (KJV) - ሉቃስ
41: Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42: And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43: Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Luke 12 (KJV) - ሉቃስ
44: Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45: But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46: The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luke 12 (KJV) - ሉቃስ
47: And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48: But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

I'm sorry, but I can't take this particular to mean slave of man at all.

It is speaking of those who know of God's will and yet falter. Not slaves of men.

Romans 1 (KJV) - ሮሜ
18: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19: Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

It's again speaking of the knowing hypoceite. It mentions that physical lusts between same sex was a product of there knowing misdirection, and vanity. Twisting the understanding of GOD into a man.

2 Chronicles 15 (KJV) - 2ይ ዜና
12: And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;
13: That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
14: And they sware unto the LORD with a loud voice, and with shouting, and with trumpets, and with cornets.

That is speaking of a covenant they made with the LORD. Try reading it. It is in reference to the Judah and the tribe of Benjamin as they had been without underatandng of GOD but seeked and found.

2 Kings 2 (KJV) - 2ይ ነገስት
24: And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

No one who is true to the will of GOD would curse any, especially not children.

That doesn't really apply to morals though. It's not lik It says for us to go around trying to get bears to attack children.

I'll continue this tomorrow when I can. I admit I should have specified the OT. But didn't. I will address the rest soon
I can't stay awake.




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25-04-2016, 11:03 PM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
Whiskey Debates,
Isaiah 13 (KJV) - ኢሳይያስ
1: The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
Isaiah 14 (KJV) - ኢሳይያስ
4: That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Both of those chapters are about Babylon/ Satan/ blaspheme against the Holy Spirit/ knowing misdirection of the faithful. It's the only umforgiven sin.

Jeremiah 48 (KJV) - ኤርምያስ
10: Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.

Same as previous. Blasphemy is the sin that isn't forgiven.

Judges 21 said nothing of rape at all.

Judges 11 (KJV) - መሳፍንቲ
31: Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

It was an oath. The daughter consented, and lastly, all offerings of the Jewish people have not pleased GOD because it wasn't the will of GOD.

It just says what is going to happen as the sword or Word of GOD is that of right division between those of Faith. Christ is t advocating physical violence as the sword of God is the Word of GOD and not a sword to kill flesh but to divide the spirit.

Matthew 11 (KJV) - ማቴዎስ
20: Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

Upbraid means to chastise, not condemn ro he'll for eternity.
Matthew 13 (KJV) - ማቴዎስ
13: Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

He says they can't understand, but if they could then they will. He doesn't do it to confuse them, they are confused regardless.

Mark 4 (KJV) - ማርቆስ
22: For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad. Again same thing.

Matthew 15 (KJV) - ማቴዎስ
7: Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8: This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
He was defending others and simultaniously showing the error and hypocricy of the accusers.

Matthew 19 (KJV) - ማቴዎስ
29: And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Has to do with detachment and Faith that GOD will provide for any who actually here and listen. Not waiting around after one has recieved guidance or duty.


Matthew 19 (KJV) - ማቴዎስ
30: But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Ok, really, bed.

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25-04-2016, 11:06 PM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(24-04-2016 11:23 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(24-04-2016 07:17 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I try to help others in any way I can.
Like when you tried and failed to kill your wife, or when you tried to find out where I live so you could come and assault me?

Not everyone here is a fucking idiot like you pops, I for one know how big a bag of shit your selling really is.
I never did either. Your being manipulative as always.

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25-04-2016, 11:09 PM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(24-04-2016 11:25 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Scripture.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

1st Kings 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not, ) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

2nd Chronicles 6:36 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not, ) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near;

Proverbs 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1st John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1st John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1st John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


Contradiction of the above scripture.

Psalm 119:1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
Psalm 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
Psalm 119:3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.

1st John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin .

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
(Jesus took the sin away from the sinner instead of casting the first stone)

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful wit


Facepalm Facepalm Facepalm Facepalm
Yeah... You kinda missed a big part. That is that none s righteous by nature or will but through the example and teachings of Christ.

Wow you were right. You have such a keen understand my of Christianity that you conveniently left out the sin part. Good job!



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26-04-2016, 12:13 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(25-04-2016 06:00 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(24-04-2016 11:12 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  [Image: my-life_1993925c.jpg]

These people died for a delusion, you stupid fuck.


If something's veracity isn't even testable (i.e. it's not falsifiable), then it's not worth believing in. Strength of a belief should be scaled to the strength of the evidence in support of it. Instead you'd rather jump all in, without evidence, and expect everyone else to just acquiesce to your assumptions instead of challenging them? Fuck that!
Not at all. Though I am fully convinced of my beliefs for my own reasons, I in no way ask or expect any to take what I say for granted, but attempt to encourage people to find out for themselves.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

You know, you don't get to unilaterally redefine what words mean. Facepalm

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26-04-2016, 12:42 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(25-04-2016 11:09 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  [...] Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

Can you please explain what this means as I have not the faintest idea. Huh

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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26-04-2016, 04:29 AM (This post was last modified: 26-04-2016 04:47 AM by popsthebuilder.)
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(26-04-2016 12:42 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(25-04-2016 11:09 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  [...] Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

Can you please explain what this means as I have not the faintest idea. Huh
If one can be selfless and work on unifying man peaceably without desire for reward then it is good. I have faith that if people can do that it will bring about change for the better. Not for some, but all.

That's sorta what it means.

Peace

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26-04-2016, 08:56 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(26-04-2016 04:29 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(26-04-2016 12:42 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Can you please explain what this means as I have not the faintest idea. Huh
If one can be selfless and work on unifying man peaceably without desire for reward then it is good. I have faith that if people can do that it will bring about change for the better. Not for some, but all.

That's sorta what it means.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

To bad religion and belief in fairy tales is the largest obstacle to accomplishing such a goal.
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26-04-2016, 06:55 PM (This post was last modified: 26-04-2016 07:12 PM by popsthebuilder.)
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(26-04-2016 08:56 AM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  
(26-04-2016 04:29 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  If one can be selfless and work on unifying man peaceably without desire for reward then it is good. I have faith that if people can do that it will bring about change for the better. Not for some, but all.

That's sorta what it means.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

To bad religion and belief in fairy tales is the largest obstacle to accomplishing such a goal.
Much organized religion seems to have a long way to go.

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26-04-2016, 11:02 PM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(25-04-2016 09:42 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Yeah, about six months ago I hadn't read the new testament yet.
And given that everything you type below is a textbook carbon copy of apologetics that can be found on any number of fundie websites I still think you haven't read it. Every argument you make is identical to something you could have pulled from a website without reading the book. What's more damning is that you make the same identical mistakes. So no I don't believe you have read it in any amount that matters.

The bigger point worth making though is that you are regurgitating an opinion you held BEFORE reading it. Which means you went into the reading looking for things that support the conclusion you have already made, which is sadly par for the course with you, pickign and choosing and twisting the content till it says what you need it to say to support your conclusions. Just more confirmation bias.


(25-04-2016 09:42 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Moses is fictional according to you. Interesting. Not to relevent but interesting.
No, not "according to me" you disingenuous little shit according to the entire credible scholarly community and every scrap of archeology on the subject. It is the current academic consensus that Moses is a work of legend and not of history.
Israeli archaeologists combing the Sinai during intense searches from 1967 to 1982 found utterly no trace of anything to support the Exodus myth.....and they should have if there was anything to find because they were able to find things even OLDER in the Sinai, things from as far back as the Stone Age.

And it was relevant when I posted it in post you flatly told banjo you didn't even bother to fucking read.

________________________________________________________________________________​________________________________________________________________________________​___________

As for your Biblical quotes....I now understand why you don't want the Torah to count. If it is not admissible (and it is, it really really is) then you are allowed to take what Jesus says and pretend like The Law, the Torah, and the context of the times does not inform what Jesus says or thinks (Even though he's a teacher, practitioner, and adherent of THAT EXACT belief system) despite his numerous instances that obedience to The Law is necessary and good.

This is just patently dishonest, if not at all surprising. The Torah and The Law are the entire basis from the teaching, views, and lunacy, of the Jesus character in the Bible. The offer incite into his motivation and views and you don't want them to count because why? He supports and adheres to a belief system that includes the subjugation women and minorities. A system that preaches the righteousness of it's practitioners enslaving other people, raping women, SELLING RAPE VICTIMS TO THEIR RAPIST, preaches genocide, mass genocide on multiple occasions. The mutilation of children, and their abuse or murder.

But no we should cut out any mention of that stuff, it doesn't count, cause it makes it harder to argue that Jesus was against all those things which were a part of his religion and culture, and continued to be so after he "died"? Because it contains all the vile, evil, dehumanizing things and his obedience to the Laws which contain them make it very clear he's just as vile, evil, and dehumanizing? Bull-fucking-shit.
Censored

(25-04-2016 09:42 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Ephesians 6 (KJV) - ኤፌሶን
First is speaks to servants not slaves.
Nope, the original Greek uses the word "doulos" which means slave. It does not mean servant it does not mean bondservent it just means slave and only slave. There are multiple words that mean servant, they are not used here. The word for slave is used and used exclusively.
Servant is used in the KJV because there was a concerted effort in the 16th century to change slave to servant, because slave was too "negative". Originally changed in the Geneva Bible by it's translators Calvin and John Knox and that tradition was continued in the KJV. It is NOT an accurate translation of the word, the actual translation is slave and only ever slave.

(25-04-2016 09:42 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Servants can be seen as employees today and the bosses the masters.
False, he is talking about slaves not servants, and also modern day employee/employer relationship bares almost NO resemblance to that of a servant/master relationship in the 1st century AD, let alone that of a slave/master which is what he is ACTUALLY talking about. You are trying to project modern business practices on a separate culture 2000 years separated from our own and that's betrays a LAUGHABLE lack of education in history.

(25-04-2016 09:42 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Also it plainly states that the master should hold the same regard for the servant as the servant regards the master.
Which is completely at odds with his opinion that masters are within their rights to beat a slave if he does something to displease his owner, even if he doesn't know he did wrong, AND at odds with The Law of which Jesus was an adherent.

Further more by setting up rules about how a slave and a master should interact with each other is a fucking admission of support for the institution of slavery. Which is fuckin' immoral!

(25-04-2016 09:42 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  1 Timothy 6 (KJV) - 1 ጢሞቴዎስ
It seems to be stating to be holy in all things, to avoid contentious thoughts and things, not worrying about material gain, but doing right by all for the sake of all.
Wrong. Again the ACTUAL word used is "doulos" which means Slave. What he is ACTUALLY saying, not what he "seems to be saying" is that slaves are to be respectful of their masters so that they don't make the faith look bad. He than goes on the tell the slave not to be mad at his owner (even if he is abusive) if his owner is a Christian because by being a good slave he makes his owner, a fellow christian, more prosperous and that's supposed to be a good thing.

There is absolutely no chastisement or refutation of the institution of slavery and the author tries to make it run SMOOTHER for the slave owner. Which is immoral and evil.

You then list Timothy 3-11 which are about completely different subjects, 1-2 being instructions to slaves, and the rest (3-10) being about the rejection of false doctrines and being content in godliness. 1 Timothy is about the author telling the recipient of the letter what he should be teaching, with 1-2 being what he should teach to slaves.

(25-04-2016 09:42 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I cannot excuse the fact that slavery isn't abolished.
Nor can you excuse the fact that you are trying to tell us this book is a good guide for morality when EVERY single person who talks about slavery in it does so in such a way to support or improve the institution. Neither Jesus or any other writer of the NT speaks out against it.
The support of slavery is NOT moral. You have already lost this argument.

(25-04-2016 09:42 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Luke 12 (KJV) - ሉቃስ
It is speaking of those who know of God's will and yet falter. Not slaves of men.
You are both right and wrong as that raises a few big problems: 1.) Jesus is telling a parable that involves a master beating and murdering a slave for not following instructions as if that was a reasonable thing to do. The parable gives us a window into his mind set, he is trying to describe what god will do to those who know what he wants them to do and don't do it and that is "kill them", which he considers a good thing. It is in fact tacit support by Jesus for the murder of disobedient slaves as reasonable and just and what god would do.
2.) As he is expressing his support for the...eventual... destruction of a disobedient slave he also says that the salve shall be "cut to pieces and assign a place among the unbelievers" ....which is Jesus supporting the murder of people that don't believe in him (he does this elsewhere int he book as well).
3.) there is also an element of God being a tyrannical asshole who will murder anyone who doesn't do what he tells them to do or for the crime of not believing ( a claim with no evidence btw).

All of these are immoral.

(25-04-2016 09:42 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Romans 1 (KJV) - ሮሜ
It's again speaking of the knowing hypoceite. It mentions that physical lusts between same sex was a product of there knowing misdirection, and vanity. Twisting the understanding of GOD into a man.
Nope, and completely changing the verses I listed to separate ones and arguing from them is dishonest. Verses 24-32 (which is what I listed) are very explicit in the content, context, and view.
1.) Firstly in what you listed talks about Gods wrath...which is funny cause you have said god has no wrath. Oops! Can't keep your bullshit in order.
2.) It says that because the people turned their back on god he caused them to be taken up by "unnatural lust". It than goes on to list gay people as "unnatural, degrading, depraved, and shameful" and than a whole bunch of other things and finally culminates in the decree that they should be murdered, that they deserve it and that anyone who supports them should also be killed.
Even if I accepted your position, and I don't, that he is speaking about the knowing hypocrite and not gay people....he is still talking about MURDERING them and anyone who supports them. You know..the part you decided to edit it out and ignore.
All of which is SUPER FUCKING IMMORAL.

2 Chronicles 15 (KJV) - 2ይ ዜና
That is speaking of a covenant they made with the LORD. Try reading it.[/quote]
Correct they are making a covenant with their god....and anyone that won't is to be put to death, wither they are great or small, man or woman.
I read it, you read it, but I'm the only one that understood it. Join our religion or die. A consistent theme in the book.
This is not moral.

(25-04-2016 09:42 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  2 Kings 2 (KJV) - 2ይ ነገስት
No one who is true to the will of GOD would curse any, especially not children.

That doesn't really apply to morals though. It's not lik It says for us to go around trying to get bears to attack children.
Except he curses them in gods name and god responds by having 42 children murdered by bears. This is not even out of character for god, who once killed a mans family to win a bet and drowned the whole world in this work of fiction.
He also makes it very clear early on in the OT that KILLING your own children for not listening to you is fine.

And yes it has a lot to say about morals....the morals of god and those he chooses to use to spread his message and in this instance the murder of 42 children for the crime of making fun of a mans lack of hair is fine and dandy.

This is not moral.

(25-04-2016 09:42 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I'll continue this tomorrow when I can. I admit I should have specified the OT. But didn't.
And watch who the goal posts dance away yet again. Dance goal posts dance.
"There is so much immoral stuff in the Torah."
"The Torah doesn't count!"
"Here is a bunch of immoral stuff int he rest of the Old Testament."
"I meant the Old Testament doesn't count!!"
"Here is a bunch of immoral stuff in the New Testament."
"It doesn't count!! Only the stuff that agrees with me Counts!!"

(25-04-2016 09:42 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Honour in Jellyfish Stockyard for Melancholy.


Your understanding of the Bible and it's translation history is appalling and fundamentally ignorant, and your editing out objectionable verses before you respond to me and your bait and switch verse changing is disgustingly dishonest.

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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