Was my response to theist too harsh?
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22-04-2016, 07:59 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 07:49 AM)Loom Wrote:  What about feral children? Not just the ones who are raised by animals, but also the ones that were isolated, locked in a room, alone, with little to no human contact during a vital time of behavioral development, and thus aren't 'tainted?'

They don't seem to ascribe to any particular faith, nor do they seem to speak of any revelations about a god 'if' they ever learn to speak, unless taught to.

Feral children is a good example. Even if they see agents of intent, it's not evidence of belief in a god.

People see agents of intent because it's an evolutionarily advantageous trait. If a pebble falls on your head, and even the idea that it may have been intended to harm you doesn't go through your head, you leave yourself open to more danger. Unfortunately, these agents of intent can extend to ridiculous situations like an overloaded grocery bag ripping moments before you get it in the car. There's no intent there, but the uneducated will see it anyway.
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22-04-2016, 08:00 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 07:14 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  You're clutching at straws here.............as has been pointed out earlier, infants are not self-aware. It is as they grow older they acquire the beliefs of their parents (whether religious in the sense of organised religion or theism in the sense of the belief in supernatural supreme beings). Indoctrinating children in societal and cultural values is what parents do. We want our children to ascribe to those values and beliefs..........kids only start to work it out for themselves once they attain a certain intellectual maturity.

So whether you want to call it theism or religion it amounts to the same thing as far as the indoctrination is concerned.

Not really, people don't need to be indoctrinated or taught by society or culture to subscribe to teleological beliefs, to believe they were created, are here a for a purpose etc... Anyone looking at the prevalence of such beliefs, the near universality of them, would be dimwitted if they assumed that it can be accounted by appealing to indoctrination. It fact it's often treated as intuitive, a variety of studies show that children even raised in non-religious homes are prone to believing that everything was created for a purpose, to serve some function.

But regardless, if as others here have suggested in the past that we don't whether or not other animals absent of an appropriate language are able to contemplate their existence, the question of whether they came from, it's just confirmation bias that leaves the same party to state in the affirmative that babies lack a belief in God.

It's also a positive claim to state the babies are atheist, that they lack a belief in God, so I'll ask again what evidence do you have for that.

None?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-04-2016, 08:03 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 05:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Are humans the only animals able to believe in God/s, that they were part of some created order?

When was the last time you have seen a
  • Dolphin
  • Elephant
  • Orca
  • Chimp
  • Gorilla

or any other animal seemingly worship something?

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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22-04-2016, 08:05 AM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2016 08:12 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 08:03 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(22-04-2016 05:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Are humans the only animals able to believe in God/s, that they were part of some created order?

When was the last time you have seen a
  • Dolphin
  • Elephant
  • Orca
  • Chimp
  • Gorilla

or any other animal seemingly worship something?

The Case for Chimpanzee Religion
Boom. Drops the mic.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-04-2016, 08:08 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 08:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's also a positive claim to state the babies are atheist, that they lack a belief in God, so I'll ask again what evidence do you have for that.

The fact that they arent able to differentiate between "me" and "others". The fact that they dont know even who "me" is?
Or you you know a way to believe in a god, an "other than me", if you dont know what "me" is?
Have you seen a baby crawl around and worship some invisible being lately? Have you ever heared of a babies first uttered words being "(where the fuck is) yahweh"?

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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22-04-2016, 08:14 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 08:08 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(22-04-2016 08:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's also a positive claim to state the babies are atheist, that they lack a belief in God, so I'll ask again what evidence do you have for that.

The fact that they arent able to differentiate between "me" and "others". The fact that they dont know even who "me" is?
Or you you know a way to believe in a god, an "other than me", if you dont know what "me" is?
Have you seen a baby crawl around and worship some invisible being lately? Have you ever heared of a babies first uttered words being "(where the fuck is) yahweh"?

Just stating it doesn't make it a fact. And to the contrary:

"Babies are born with self-awareness which allows them to differentiate their bodies from other people’s, new research suggests."


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/articl...z46Z4nEnCx
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-04-2016, 08:22 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 08:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Not really, people don't need to be indoctrinated or taught by society or culture to subscribe to teleological beliefs, to believe they were created, are here a for a purpose etc... Anyone looking at the prevalence of such beliefs, the near universality of them, would be dimwitted if they assumed that it can be accounted by appealing to indoctrination. It fact it's often treated as intuitive...

You do realize that intuition is fallible, right? A massive portion of quantum mechanics goes against what is intuitive.

People also see intention in events that have none. Your watch didn't fail intentionally to make you late, yet plenty of people see things that way. "Uggh, my computer hates me today"... What?

People are fighting against unnecessary vestigial traits all the time.
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22-04-2016, 08:27 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 08:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-04-2016 08:03 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  When was the last time you have seen a
  • Dolphin
  • Elephant
  • Orca
  • Chimp
  • Gorilla

or any other animal seemingly worship something?

The Case for Chimpanzee Religion
Boom. Drops the mic.

Dropping links with no explanation means nobody is going to bother looking at it.

The fact that you "drop(ed) the mic" also gives the impression that you're no longer open to discussion... But of course, you being open to concession was always illusory.
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22-04-2016, 08:35 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 08:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-04-2016 07:14 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  You're clutching at straws here.............as has been pointed out earlier, infants are not self-aware. It is as they grow older they acquire the beliefs of their parents (whether religious in the sense of organised religion or theism in the sense of the belief in supernatural supreme beings). Indoctrinating children in societal and cultural values is what parents do. We want our children to ascribe to those values and beliefs..........kids only start to work it out for themselves once they attain a certain intellectual maturity.

So whether you want to call it theism or religion it amounts to the same thing as far as the indoctrination is concerned.

Not really, people don't need to be indoctrinated or taught by society or culture to subscribe to teleological beliefs, to believe they were created, are here a for a purpose etc... Anyone looking at the prevalence of such beliefs, the near universality of them, would be dimwitted if they assumed that it can be accounted by appealing to indoctrination. It fact it's often treated as intuitive, a variety of studies show that children even raised in non-religious homes are prone to believing that everything was created for a purpose, to serve some function.

But regardless, if as others here have suggested in the past that we don't whether or not other animals absent of an appropriate language are able to contemplate their existence, the question of whether they came from, it's just confirmation bias that leaves the same party to state in the affirmative that babies lack a belief in God.

It's also a positive claim to state the babies are atheist, that they lack a belief in God, so I'll ask again what evidence do you have for that.

None?

Children below a certain age regard EVERYTHING as being there for them. If it does not serve that purpose it is of no use to them. It is when they are shown the relationships that exist between themselves and their environment that they begin to take on the cultural baggage associated with that knowledge.

Babies are not self-aware..........this has been pointed out very early on in the thread. A creature that is not self-aware can hardly hold beliefs. Atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of deities therefore babies are atheists.

The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike
Excreta Tauri Sapientam Fulgeat (The excrement of the bull causes wisdom to flee)
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22-04-2016, 08:39 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 08:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Dropping links with no explanation means nobody is going to bother looking at it.

The fact that you "drop(ed) the mic" also gives the impression that you're no longer open to discussion... But of course, you being open to concession was always illusory.

I bothered. It's one study, behind a paywall.

Here is the Abstract:
Quote:Do chimpanzees engage in religious behaviors? To date this question remains unanswered. I use methods from religious studies and anthropology of religion that demonstrate an answer in the affirmative. A comprehensive review of primatology reports reveals that chimpanzees do perform ritualized patterns of behavior in response to birth, death, consortship, and elemental natural phenomena. A structuralist analysis of these patterns shows that chimpanzees deploy similar formulaic action schemas involving recombination of syntagmatic and paradigmatic behaviors across all four of these life-situations. In the course of these performances, chimpanzees decontextualize and convert everyday communicative signals to express non-ordinary emotions of wonder and awe. The patterning of chimpanzee ritual behaviors evidences all the components of a prototypical trans-species definition of religion. These findings support hypotheses that propose religious behaviors for other species, including hominins prior to Homo sapiens sapiens.

I googled and could find no other studies that mention animals practicing religion.

The study was published in Equinox, the journal for the International Society for the Study of Religion, Nature and Culture.

I remain skeptical.

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