Was my response to theist too harsh?
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22-04-2016, 08:50 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 01:01 AM)stcomza Wrote:  So, last night I got blasted by a very religious old lady for saying that children are born atheists. She jumped halfway into a conversation I had with someone else and was not privy to the basis of our discussion.

She took absolute exception to my unholy "revelation". She proclaimed that due to the holy spirit, my findings were not only untrue, but bordered on total sacrilege. No matter how I tried explaining my view, she kept on pointing out that I had no proof. I have no problem with what she believes, but she got very aggregated and argumentative. I've learned to keep calm during these type of debates and her "outburst" just showed that you can't have a decent open minded discussion with someone not willing to listen to your opinion.

My approach was that when children are born, they have no knowledge of father christmas, the easter bunny or batman for that matter. Does this then not apply to any god and/or religion? If the holy spirit lives within the child, then surely religious instruction will not be needed? If the god she believed in was so powerful, how come only some children are born christian? Yet, when I pointed out that jesus asked for children to be brought to him for instruction, she said that the holy spirit was not active in "those" times yet. Only after his crucifixion was the holy spirit given to every newborn child.......
She walked away when I asked her about hindu children.....Smile

If a child is brought up not being taught (informed/told) about father christmas and his virtues, they will be none the wiser. But, just the mention of god/religion and the dynamic changes. Angry

Am I wrong? Dodgy

No.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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22-04-2016, 08:57 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 08:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-04-2016 08:03 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  When was the last time you have seen a
  • Dolphin
  • Elephant
  • Orca
  • Chimp
  • Gorilla

or any other animal seemingly worship something?

The Case for Chimpanzee Religion
Boom. Drops the mic.

First line of the link.

"Do chimpanzees engage in religious behaviors? To date this question remains unanswered."

Signs of morning or repeating practices in the more intuitive species such as Elephants or Chimps, and the like don't have any baring if they believe in a god or not. Nor do I feel it can be used to say they have a religious practice.

If so dose the salmon returning to it's nesting ground every year only to die a religious practice? Migration of sea turtles, birds and the like are these due to a "higher power" guiding them or is it part of their nature?

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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22-04-2016, 09:07 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 07:28 AM)Walter Wrote:  ‘We are all born atheist’ is an incomplete phrase.

‘We are all born atheists and anarchists’ is the correct, and consistent, phrase.

Anarchists and anarchy in the political sense is not applicable to a child. An anarchist consciously rejects the idea of government and the rule of law. Children are assumed to be learning which behaviors are socially acceptable.

There is also a difference between what actual anarchists believe and the beliefs that are associated with them. The idea of the foaming mad, bomb throwing anarchist is a stereotype.

(22-04-2016 07:28 AM)Walter Wrote:  Does Dawkins have a problem when the six year old is indoctrinated by his parents into secular authoritarianism (socialism, communist totalitarianism, unionism, fascism…) where the priests have simply been replaced by the State’s regulators, law writers and enforcers?

That question would be best directed at Dawkins.

All children are indoctrinated by their parents, usually in accordance to the beliefs and customs of the society that they live in.

(22-04-2016 07:28 AM)Walter Wrote:  Because those people also believe that with their State, or doG, given powers they are able to make the lives of the peasants much more meaningful.

doG?

(22-04-2016 07:28 AM)Walter Wrote:  Evolution has given us the capacity to not only think in the transcendent, but to transfer the powers of transcendent beings to humans. Once that power has been transferred, it is now easy, and very convenient, to condemn the priest.

Assigning transcendent powers to a person is just as delusional as assigning them to an imaginary being. Placing one's trust blindly in a person or organization is just as foolish as praying to an idol.

Priests should be condemned. They live parasitic lives preying on the gullible.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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22-04-2016, 09:39 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 08:35 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  Babies are not self-aware..........this has been pointed out very early on in the thread. A creature that is not self-aware can hardly hold beliefs. Atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of deities therefore babies are atheists.

Just because a couple of you all repeat something doesn't make it true.

"Babies Have Self-Awareness From The Minute They’re Born (STUDY)"

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/babies-se...us_science

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-04-2016, 09:42 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 08:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  "Babies are born with self-awareness which allows them to differentiate their bodies from other people’s, new research suggests."

From the abstract, "Though behavioral studies in infancy have investigated infants’ discrimination of body-related multisensory stimuli, whether they attribute this information as belonging to the self is still unknown".

Hmmmmm...........one study only and it still does not provide anything to contrary to the consensus that babies are not self-aware.

The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike
Excreta Tauri Sapientam Fulgeat (The excrement of the bull causes wisdom to flee)
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22-04-2016, 09:58 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
Has he already told us what he believed as a baby and why?
Maybe i missed it, sorry.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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22-04-2016, 10:11 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
I'm not a big fan of the "born atheists" argument myself. Technically true, I suppose, but I admire well thought out atheism as a conclusion.

Nevertheless, the Pirahã people stand in contrast to the ladies' beliefs.

I first heard about them in this book....

"I take all knowledge to be my province."
-Sir Francis Bacon
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22-04-2016, 10:18 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
i tried asking my 5 month old daughter what her religious beliefs are. she pooped her diaper in response.
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22-04-2016, 10:51 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 05:02 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-04-2016 01:53 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  You are absolutely spot on.

As Richard Dawkins says, "Would you ever speak of a baby's political beliefs? Hannah is a socialist baby, Mark a conservative. Who would ever dream of saying such a thing? What would you say if you read a demographic article which said something like this: “One in every three children born today is a Kantian Neo-platonist child. If the birth rate trends continue, Existentialist Positivists will be outnumbered by 2030.” Never mind the nonsensical names of philosophical schools of thought just invented. I deliberately chose surreal names so as not to distract from the real point. Religion is the one exception we all make to the rule: don’t label children with the opinions of their parents."

[Image: 25743973841_af4700e6d7_z.jpg]


It's funny that the type of folks here who argued that we don't know whether other animals have contemplated their existence, where they came from, seem to confidently assert that infants lack a belief.

Shouldn't we just be lacking a belief as to whether they do or do not believe in God/s, for the sake of being consistent.
No, you are as wrong now as you were in the other thread you made this stupid comment in. Babies lack a belief in god and are thus Atheists, now fuck off you broken record.

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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22-04-2016, 11:01 AM
RE: Was my response to theist too harsh?
(22-04-2016 10:18 AM)Dark Wanderer Wrote:  i tried asking my 5 month old daughter what her religious beliefs are. she pooped her diaper in response.
Obviously an anarchist.
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