Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
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05-02-2013, 11:40 AM
RE: Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
I look at it this way. Without Yahweh, there could be no parting of the red sea. There is no Yahweh. Therefore, the parting of the red sea did not happen. That throws into question the entire story even as a historical event where "something" happened. My guess: nothing in the story really happened at all and it's pure fiction.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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05-02-2013, 04:39 PM
AW: RE: Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
(05-02-2013 09:44 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 12:11 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Christians would do well to look at that whole book as fiction and move on.
I agree.
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DL
Weren't you a gnostic Christian last time around? Or is that just my head messing with me? Consider
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06-02-2013, 12:28 AM
RE: Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
I love the fact that somebody forgot to remind the Egyptians that they lost a Pharaoh (not a specific one, just 'a' Pharaoh), and that they needed to drown during that whole world wide flood bit with Noah and his boat. Cause they kind of forgot to make any mention of it in their own histories...

A tenacious people, those Egyptians...

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06-02-2013, 12:40 AM
RE: Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
(06-02-2013 12:28 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I love the fact that somebody forgot to remind the Egyptians that they lost a Pharaoh (not a specific one, just 'a' Pharaoh), and that they needed to drown during that whole world wide flood bit with Noah and his boat. Cause they kind of forgot to make any mention of it in their own histories...

A tenacious people, those Egyptians...
Or remind their genetecists that they had developed a separate genetic lineage in just a (relatively) few generations. Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating Yogi, CAAT-LY.
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06-02-2013, 03:04 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2013 03:09 PM by Greatest I am.)
RE: Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
(05-02-2013 11:40 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I look at it this way. Without Yahweh, there could be no parting of the red sea. There is no Yahweh. Therefore, the parting of the red sea did not happen. That throws into question the entire story even as a historical event where "something" happened. My guess: nothing in the story really happened at all and it's pure fiction.

I would say fiction but not pure.

I see it as a myth of the Hyksos expulsion re-written for Semitic pride stroking.
That system of topological writing was common in those days.
The N T may have been written the same way thanks to the War of the Jews book and Rome’s deep purse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJgvws0ZYUE

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DL
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06-02-2013, 03:16 PM
RE: AW: Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
(05-02-2013 04:39 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(05-02-2013 09:44 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  I agree.
Regards
DL
Weren't you a gnostic Christian last time around? Or is that just my head messing with me? Consider
Yes. Your memory is sound.
I believe that all God's and scriptures should be thought of as fiction and myths unless one suffers an apotheosis. Only that personal experience should make one a believer in anything other than what can be shown to be real via logic and reason. The Godhead I know does not need a belief in fantasy, miracle or magic. If he did, I would scrap his sorry ass. He also makes no demands on anyone and sends no one to a hell. It is more of a universal consciousness and Godhead is a term I use. Not one that was given. I have no proof to share though so please do not ask.
I also do not try to push this belief on anyone.
Regards
DL
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06-02-2013, 03:19 PM
RE: Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
(06-02-2013 12:28 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I love the fact that somebody forgot to remind the Egyptians that they lost a Pharaoh (not a specific one, just 'a' Pharaoh), and that they needed to drown during that whole world wide flood bit with Noah and his boat. Cause they kind of forgot to make any mention of it in their own histories...

A tenacious people, those Egyptians...
They might have written of the Exodus though but they called it the Hyksos Expulsion.
Regards
DL
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06-02-2013, 03:20 PM
RE: AW: Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
(06-02-2013 03:16 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Yes. Your memory is sound.
I believe that all God's and scriptures should be thought of as fiction and myths unless one suffers an apotheosis. Only that personal experience should make one a believer in anything other than what can be shown to be real via logic and reason. The Godhead I know does not need a belief in fantasy, miracle or magic. If he did, I would scrap his sorry ass. He also makes no demands on anyone and sends no one to a hell. It is more of a universal consciousness and Godhead is a term I use. Not one that was given. I have no proof to share though so please do not ask.
I also do not try to push this belief on anyone.
Regards
DL
Your god sounds like a nice guy. Consider
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06-02-2013, 04:06 PM
RE: Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
Copy and paste inc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus_Decoded
Jacobovici's assertions have been criticized by archaeologists and religious scholars. The criticism addresses each of Jacobovici's claims, as well as his methods in general, including:
  • Jacobovici uses circular logic
    for his assertions. In the absence of any other evidence, Jacobovici
    attempts to find a real-world explanation for a Biblical phenomenon.
    Then, from the fact that a phenomenon could be caused by a certain event, Jacobovici surmises that a Biblical phenomenon was caused by exactly that type of an event.[8]
  • Biblical scholars further criticize Jacobovici's method of first
    assuming that the Biblical description was an embellished description of
    a real world event, followed up with claims that his explanation is
    "exactly as the Bible describes," whereas in reality his explanation
    diverges from the Biblical description.[9]
  • Chris Heard, Associate Professor of Religion at Pepperdine University
    on his Web site called "Higgaion" claims that while a single
    supposition is not an invalid tactic, Jacobovici uses a chain of
    suppositions to support each subsequent claim, often using commercial
    breaks to move from "it could be possible that" to "now that we've
    established that," a misleading rhetorical trick.[10]
  • Chris Heard also claims through carbon dating evidence that the Santorini eruption happened some time between 1650 BC and 1550 BC, narrowed to between 1627-1600 BC, with a 95% probability of accuracy.[11]
  • Jacobovici puts the Exodus in 1500 BC. However, it is believed that the pharaoh Ahmose
    ruled decades earlier, in 1550–1525 BC. Jacobovici does not address the
    issue, and simply moves Ahmose's rule 50 years to the future in order
    to fit his theory, without presenting any evidence or support for his
    claims.
  • As in Hebrew the word 'Ah' means brother, and 'Mose' means Moses, Jacobovici claims that the word Ahmose can be understood as 'brother of Moses'. This however is incorrect, as actual hieroglyphics in the pharaoh's name read Yahmes. 'Ahmose' is a mangled obsolete misreading of the name, still used traditionally. Yahmes has nothing to do with Hebrew Ah Mose, and means 'born of Iah' or 'Iah is born'.[12] Iah is a lunar deity and is also written as Yah, Jah, Joh or Jah(w).[13] The syllable 'Ah' in the name 'Ahmose' (Jˁḥ ms(j.w)) is a theophoric syllable and refers to the deity Iah (Jˁḥ). Theophoric syllables were very common in ancient Egypt. The name 'Ramesses' (R`-ms-sw) is a combination of the theophoric syllable 'Ra' (R`) and the combining form '-moses' (-ms-s(w)). Consequentially 'Ramesses' means 'Ra is born' or 'Ra fashioned him'.[14] Furthermore, Moses is an English version of the Greek variant of the traditionally Hebrew Mosheh. Egyptian would have differentiated between 's' and 'sh' in Mose / Mosheh.[10]
  • Chris Heard further claims that the mechanism of the Lake Nyos
    eruption and subsequent events is cardinally different from what would
    have happened in a river such as the Nile. Build-up of gas, or high
    concentrations of iron in the deep waters, would only be possible in a
    deep lake with still water; not in a shallow river with flowing water.[15]
  • There's no archeological evidence, or any supporting evidence
    presented by Jacobovici, to support the claim that Egyptian first-born
    slept in beds, while all others slept on roofs. Jacobovici's explanation
    for the 10th plague as being caused by carbon dioxide, this does not
    account for the Biblical description of deaths of firstborn cattle.[9]
  • Chris Heard on his "Higgaion" website claims that while Jacobovici
    talks of a palpable ash cloud in Egypt, 800 kilometers from the volcanic
    eruption, later on in the documentary a geologist backs up the claim
    that ash reached Egypt by showing that only a microscopic amount is
    found in the soil, which would not only not create a palpable cloud, it
    would be altogether invisible to the naked eye.[16]
  • Jacobovici's claim of a shelf collapse, leading to a decrease in
    water levels, immediately followed by a second natural disaster, a tsunami,
    leading to a restoration of water levels, has absolutely no geological
    evidence, whereas such a calamity would have led to widespread
    devastation across the entire region, not just localized to one lake,
    and it would have left a huge geological footprint. It would have likely
    also been recorded by eyewitnesses. There's no record of anything of
    this magnitude happening anywhere. Also, while Jacobovici claims that
    his explanation is 'exactly as the Bible describes', the Bible actually
    describes a wall of water on each side of the Hebrews, which is the
    exact opposite of Jacobovici's explanation.[17]
  • Jacobovici presents the Beni Hasan tomb painting as proof of Jewish
    migration into Egypt. However, Jacobovici ignores the fact that the tomb
    painting is actually signed by the author, identifying the caravan as a
    merchants (not migrants); coming from the land of Shut, which is not in the area of modern Israel; and dated to the reign of pharaoh Senusret II, circa 1890 BC and not Jacobovici's claim of 1700 BC.[1]
  • Prof. Heard claims that presenting a ring signed Jacob-har and linking it to the Biblical Joseph, Jacobovici ignores the fact that Yaqub-Har is a well-attested to Egyptian pharaoh of the Second Intermediate Period; and Yakov and variants are common Semitic
    (not just Hebrew) names from the period. Furthermore, Jacobovici
    provides absolutely no explanation as to why Joseph would have a signet
    ring with the name of his father Jacob, and not his own, which is a
    modern-day equivalent of signing legal contracts with a signature of
    one's father.[18]
  • Chris Heard states that inscriptions at Serabit el-Khadem, which refer to El, are not necessarily proof that Hebrews worked in the mines. El is a common Semitic (not just a Hebrew) word that means god (for example, see Baal); and the word El in the Bible is often used to refer to gods other than the Hebrew God. Altogether, the word El appears in the entire Tanakh 226 times, often referring to other gods; whereas the word YHVH appears 6,800 times and it refers exclusively to the god of Israel. Furthermore, the actual inscription[19] shown in the documentary does not contain the word El at all; two other El inscriptions from the mine are known, but they are not shown in the program.[20]
  • Altogether the connection of the Serabit el-Khadem mines to the
    Exodus is suspect, since the Bible tells of Moses liberating Hebrew
    builders from the Nile delta, not miners from 400 kilometers to the
    South.
  • The composition of the Admonitions of Ipuwer,
    a papyrus that according to Jacobovici describes a plague of hail and
    fire, is in fact dated to ca. 1850 BC - 1600 BC, at least 100 years
    before Jacobovici's Exodus date of 1500 BC. The papyrus also refers not
    to current events but, most likely, to the First Intermediate Period of ca. 2134 to 2040 BC, five to six centuries before Jacobovici's Exodus.[1]
  • The El-Arish granite shrine dates to nearly a thousand years after
    1500 BC, and the symbols Jacobovici refers to as the 'parting of the red
    sea', two knives and three waves, mean nothing of the sort. The claim
    is akin to saying that the name Ramesses,
    based on hieroglyphics used to write it, means
    sun-fox-skins-folded-cloth-sedge-quail-chick. Altogether, the text in
    the stele is mythological, and none of the things Jacobovici refers to
    from the stele are actually found in any known translations of the text.[1][17]
  • Chris Heard claims that while speaking of the 3 Greek stelae,
    Jacobovici only shows stelae 2 and 3 from Grave Circle A, and does not
    show stele 1, which clearly shows a hunting scene with chariots, and not
    Moses and the pharaoh. Instead of stele 1, Jacobovici shows a different
    stele from a different find, with a hole in the middle. The actual
    stele is shown only briefly, and is then replaced by a CGI version, with
    the hole filled in. Figures on the actual stele, which have tails
    curved up and are instantly recognized as lions, are replaced with CGI
    versions with tails turned down, now identified as horses.[21][22]
  • The swirls motif on the stele, which Jacobovici identifies as water,
    is very common in Mycenaean art of the period, and often appears in
    context that clearly excludes its identification with water.[22]
  • The Higgaion site claims that Jacobovici greatly distorts the Biblical description of the Ark of the Covenant, and the Tabernacle, in order to present the Greek pendant as a representation of the Ark. The pendant does not resemble the biblical description.[23]
In his review of the documentary, Dr. Ronald Hendel, Professor of Hebrew Bible and Jewish Studies at the University of California, Berkeley.[24] writes:

"The made-for-TV documentary, The Exodus Decoded, begins with some excellent special effects and a short excerpt from the Steven Spielberg-George Lucas thriller, Raiders of the Lost Ark.
This introduction sets the stage for a fast-paced show with high
production values and dramatic footage. Unfortunately, unlike the Indiana Jones
movie, this film presents itself as non-fiction. Watching it is
reminiscent of an expensive infomercial, in which the actor-salesman
makes increasingly exaggerated claims for his product—it makes you lose
weight, adds muscle, and makes you rich to boot. In this case, the
actor-director is selling a highly dubious bundle of theories about the
historical and scientific veracity of the Biblical Exodus."[3]

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06-02-2013, 07:36 PM
RE: Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?
I love Simcha... and miss The Naked Archaeologist...

But I've watched this before, and it's hardly a question that he is reaching here. It's a "possibility" and there is a likely occurrence a smaller group of enslaved people escaped Egypt at some time in a similar event and that was built upon and created the grand myth of the Exodus.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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