Was the Holocaust... a lie?
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09-03-2012, 07:39 AM
Was the Holocaust... a lie?
The Holocaust was relatively low on my list of things to eventually inquiry... that was until I found out in the European Union you'll be sent to prison for up to 3 years for merely questioning the holocaust. That sent the alarm and caused me to wave the red flags in my brain, surely something as 'irrefutable' as the holocaust didn't warrant such a penalty?

I had always been worried about how little scientific evidence there was to support the holocaust, I mean something that would really bind the holocaust actually happening. Like testing for Cyanide in the supposed gas chambers... eventually one scientist did test for cyanide. Keeping it secret to avoid tampering with, the result was that no traces of cyanide were found except for in a small gas chamber. Oh yes, there were gas chambers, used to delouse clothing brought into the camps to kill lice and prevent epidemics of Typhus.

Another interesting thing about the holocaust is that they claimed that the bodies of those 'gassed' were cremated in crematoriums, which they said it took about 20 minutes to fully incinerate the body. When in reality it takes a few HOURS to do it with a Modern Crematorium... this was 70 years ago.

The Jews even in the holocaust story were originally going to be deported from Nazi Europe. The only question was where? The answer is relatively simple, the Jews would've been deported to Palestine once the Nazi's conquered it. But they never did conquer the then British controlled state, and so the Jews remained in the camps so close to a zionist movement... but the Jewish state of Israel DID come to fruition despite the Nazi failure to deport them. The reason being that the Nazi's actually lied about deporting Jews and actually mass murdered them in the camps, and now all these Jews without home nor country needed a new place to go.

The problem with that is now the ENTIRE state of Israel DEPENDS on people believing in the Holocaust for it's very existence. Without it, the support for their nation would be severely undermined (and the U.S. gives tons of support for Israel). So in order to silence dissent, they made it illegal to question the holocaust. They bribed, or threatened the EU I don't know how they did it, to make it illegal. Thank goodness Americans value their freedoms so much... otherwise I would be in jail right now.

For not only is questioning the holocaust illegal in Europe, but denying it ever happened is also illegal. Your thoughts on this?
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09-03-2012, 08:29 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
the only piece of evidence I can count on is the photographies we can see everywhere about this, I think that enough proof for the fact that people were mass murdered, can't know the method or how many were killed, but that is of very little importance, a few thousands is more than enough to call it a genocide. As for this being enough justification for the creation of Israel, well, that's a whole different topic I don't know enough so I'll just let that unanswered Confused

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09-03-2012, 08:37 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(09-03-2012 08:29 AM)nach_in Wrote:  the only piece of evidence I can count on is the photographies we can see everywhere about this, I think that enough proof for the fact that people were mass murdered, can't know the method or how many were killed, but that is of very little importance, a few thousands is more than enough to call it a genocide. As for this being enough justification for the creation of Israel, well, that's a whole different topic I don't know enough so I'll just let that unanswered Confused

If I showed you pictures of starving Ethiopians or Ethiopians who had died of starvation... would you believe me if I said that the United States was mass murdering Ethiopians? Or would you believe that a country which is ravaged by war and drought can no longer feed it's populace?

So those pictures of people who are starved to the bone it becomes more of a question... were they starved deliberately? Or... when the allies bombed the supply routes of the Nazi occupied Europe they were unable to get food to these remote camps? Curious thing though, many of them did not die of starvation, they died of Typhus. Anne Frank died of Typhus. So I suppose you could say allied negligence led to the death of many Jews towards the end of World War II.
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09-03-2012, 09:01 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(09-03-2012 08:37 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  
(09-03-2012 08:29 AM)nach_in Wrote:  the only piece of evidence I can count on is the photographies we can see everywhere about this, I think that enough proof for the fact that people were mass murdered, can't know the method or how many were killed, but that is of very little importance, a few thousands is more than enough to call it a genocide. As for this being enough justification for the creation of Israel, well, that's a whole different topic I don't know enough so I'll just let that unanswered Confused

If I showed you pictures of starving Ethiopians or Ethiopians who had died of starvation... would you believe me if I said that the United States was mass murdering Ethiopians? Or would you believe that a country which is ravaged by war and drought can no longer feed it's populace?

So those pictures of people who are starved to the bone it becomes more of a question... were they starved deliberately? Or... when the allies bombed the supply routes of the Nazi occupied Europe they were unable to get food to these remote camps? Curious thing though, many of them did not die of starvation, they died of Typhus. Anne Frank died of Typhus. So I suppose you could say allied negligence led to the death of many Jews towards the end of World War II.

of course I wouldn't believe you right away, unless you give me some kind of evidence, check this site (warning: disturbing pictures ahead) http://isurvived.org/Holocaust-definition.html

A lot of those pictures indicate that nazis were actually killing the jews and other demographic groups I guess. Adding that to the indirect information we can find through published investigations makes the holocaust impossible to reasonably deny.

We can argue about the accuracy of those investigations and the extent of the nazi government guilt in the deaths (maybe they didn't killed all of them, maybe they just let them die, which is not much better actually) but I don't think we can deny the whole event, it would be like denying evolution because we can't see a whole species evolving into another in a lifetime, disregarding the overwhelming evidence there is to it.

I'll go ahead and say that allies had some responsibility, it seems reasonable it happened as you describe, but I doubt that responsibility is really comparable to that of the nazis

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09-03-2012, 09:25 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
The atrocity was real enough - as all atrocities are. The numbers were real enough - Jews, Gypsies, communists, mental patients, rebellious Poles, intellectuals - millions of people killed, enslaved, imprisoned and tortured. Why would anyone have a problem believing that, when we see the same kind of thing going on all the time, all over the world?

Calling that atrocity The Holocaust as in the biblical end of the world, was premature and somewhat ethnocentric, but it's so widely accepted by now that we'll just have to come up with a new term for the final conflict. (The War on Terror To End All Wars on Terror?)

It's not the mean god I have trouble with - it's the people who worship a mean god.
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09-03-2012, 10:09 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
You act like this took place hundreds of years ago. There are people alive today that were in concentration camps.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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09-03-2012, 10:30 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
The start of your post is a bit misleading. You won't get sent anywhere for questioning. Denial is not a question. It also does not apply to the whole European Union, it only applies to countries that criminalise it. From what i can tell these tend to mainly be the perpetrators of the holocaust, who are probably more acutely aware of how any similar sentiment from them will be compared to such a dark time in their history.

I am also not completely sure what you are referring to in the rest of your post. Are you saying that we are misled on the causes of their deaths? If you are then I would suggest a lot more thought goes into your post because there is a heap of evidence to the contrary, most of which would need disproving before your assertions could be given any serious consideration.

"Belief means not wanting to know what is true"
Friedrich Nietzsche
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09-03-2012, 04:25 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
The State of Israel's existence being dependent on the holocaust being believed seems incorrect to me... It was a big boost back in the times to support and aid the Zionist movement but the validity of the bible is what the state being pushed depends upon....

Oh wait.. Why are they getting 9 billion dollars from the US and being allowed to be in violation of the Geneva convention again?
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09-03-2012, 05:24 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
I was born and raised in post war Germany.

When I went to school, we learned history, all kinds of history, in detail, but WW2 was barely touched upon.

What I know is from eyewitness reports of my family. And these were scarce, no one wanted to talk about it. It practically never happened. (This has long since changed, generations after mine do learn about it in school and you can talk about it again)

My dad fought in WW2 on the German side, as did my uncles. Everyone was drafted, men as old as 65 and boys the age of 14.

I just know tidbits of tales, so here goes:

One of my uncles was captured by the russians and put on a train, on the open cargo wagons, and when they passed under bridges people would empty trash and sewage in buckets onto them. They ate the stuff. And it froze on them...

My dad's mom lived in the north, and there were all kinds of prisoners (jews, germans who had spoken out against the war, prisoners of war of various origins) who were walked by her house every day to go to work, and then back. She said they were in working condition but very skinny. She used to leave a big pot of soup and a ladle out every day and go to town. When she got back the soup was gone. One day soldiers came to her door and questioned her about feeding the criminals. She said she had been wondering what happened to her soup, a couple of times now she had set it outside to cool and gone to town and when she came back it was gone. They forbid her to put any food outside at any time. She was lucky. Others were taken away for such things.

It was illegal to listen to anything on the radio but the german propaganda channel. People used to take the radio under all their combined blankets and turned it to very low to listen to Radio free europe. If you were caught, you were taken away.

Kids in school were asked to write essays about their parent's dinner conversations. It happened that they came home from school and their parents had been taken away.

My mom, a young girl then, lived in Munich and had been engaged to my dad before he went to war. Munich was bombed heavily and her family starved so she decided to head north to my dad's family. The stories she told me about that trip could fill books. Suffice it to say it was HORRID! She did get there in one piece, and she was the only one who made it from a group of 5 girls travelling together.

My dad's father was also in the war. All the men were. My grandma had hoarded all kinds of stuff in the basement and they were doing ok. Mom stayed til the end of the war and then headed back to Munich, which was just as horrid a trip minus the bombs falling.

Before the war my mom's dad had started to build a house and all there was was a basement. Mom decided to wait for my dad there since he knew about it. There was no way anyone knew where anyone else was, so you just stayed some place the other person knew, if it wasn't bombed out.

She crawled through the rubble collecting pieces of furniture, a leg of a chair here, a seat there, etc and brought them to that basenment and nailed them together to make furniture. She was there by herself for 3 months and one day dad showed up - emaciated but alive. He never spoke one word about the war. Ever.

There are a lot of other stories, but the one thing that resulted from all of this is that everyone was in the closet about everything. Live through a time when anything you say can land you in a concentration camp and you learn to shut up.

This is a big part of why my parents were closet atheists and never even told us, their kids, until decades later. That experience was so powerful, the fear never left them.

It didn't matter who or what you were, if you said or did anything that wasn't in line with the nazis, you were done for.

So while I never lerned about it in history in school, I learned a whole other perspective from those who lived it. And I can tell you, I hate war, any war, anywhere.

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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09-03-2012, 05:32 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
Brilliant post Dom. I've heard many family stories about this time, but I'm English so it is nice to hear from a different perspective.

I completely agree about war, it is unnecessary in a civilised world, unfortunately we do not appear to live in one. Hopefully one day though.

"Belief means not wanting to know what is true"
Friedrich Nietzsche
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