Was the Holocaust... a lie?
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17-03-2012, 08:01 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(17-03-2012 07:56 PM)Dom Wrote:  It's so tiresome to keep going round and round and round....

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT PEOPLE DIED OF!

THEY WERE DRAGGED OUT OF THEIR HOUSES AGAINST THEIR WILL AND PUT IN CAMPS WHERE THEY DIED BY THE MILLIONS.

HAD THEY STAYED HOME, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE DIED.

CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW????????????????????

There were only about 400,000 such deaths. And no had they stayed at home or in ghettos it would not have been better, these diseases RAVAGED Europe, not just the camps. That's why there were EXTREME precautions to try and keep the diseases OUT of the camps, because they were already spreading through Europe.
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17-03-2012, 08:06 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(17-03-2012 07:48 PM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  
(17-03-2012 07:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  I think that piles of bodies and mass graves speak for themselves. There is plenty of photographic evidence and eyewitness accounts.

those people were victims of disease, not mass murder

Here's somebody with tuberculosis

[Image: a-tb-patient-who-is-co-infected-with-hiv-large.jpg]

Typhus, Tuberculosis, Typhoid, AND dysentery were all diseases found in the camps (repeating myself) and can cause weight loss, even severely if it's advanced.

and in such close quarters it's easy for alot of people to get sick, now at the end of the war when the allies completely shit all over the german supply lines you can imagine how difficult it would be to try and treat an epidemic, even when treatment was readily available there is still a very real chance of fatalities. So if there is no more treatment available due to allied bombing you can also imagine how many fatalities there would be. Think about it like how if the Germans had advanced into the United States and started bombing our supply lines so we wouldn't have been able to send medical supplies to those in our concentration camps holding Japanese people (when there was already a lack of medical treatment In OUR OWN camps)

You're a medical doctor? You can diagnose from photographs?

What is it you are denying?
Do you deny that the Nazis herded millions of people into concentration camps?
Do you deny that millions of people died in those camps?
Do you deny that their deaths are the fault of the Nazis?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-03-2012, 08:19 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(17-03-2012 08:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  You're a medical doctor? You can diagnose from photographs?

No I am not a doctor, but there were doctors on the allied sides who reported 'not one of these people died of gas' and that many of the deaths were from diseases especially Typhus. So they obviously knew what they were doing.

What is it you are denying? A Plan to mass murder
Do you deny that the Nazis put a few million people into multiple concentration camps spread across their territory? nope
Do you deny that millions of people died in those camps? yes
Do you deny that their deaths are the fault of the Nazis? yes They did what they could to help those who had fallen ill, so no I do not blame the Nazis for the deaths because there was no negligence.
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18-03-2012, 02:12 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
Quote:The law states anyone who denies it with intent to defend the perps will be arrested and five years in prison, by merely denying it I am already defending those who allegedly did those actions. Out of pure statement, if the holocaust didn't happen, then they would be innocent.

Ok, I checked it out- you are right I were wrong. There is a punishment against denying the Holocaust, and you know what- after finding it, I love my country much more. FYI- from 1986, when the law was passed, no one, not even once, did anybody was charged with it- so your claims about hunting everyone who speaks ill about the Holocaust is merely baseless.
But the Holocaust did happen, so your statement is baseless.

Quote:Zionists were over achievers what can I say? They saw a chance to take over a small government and they took it. legal international rights, call it what ever you want, they still stole the land. Like The British Empire giving the United States the green light to take land from the Native Americans.

Well....so lets conclude:
Palestinians call themselves "invaders", with no connection (historical, genetical, cultural etc, etc) to the original ones- no comment.
Jewish community was allways in Israel, big or small, since ancient times- no comment.
Before the Ottoman Empire, there were no Palestinians in Israel- no comment.
Palestinians began calling themselves "Palestinians" only in 1967, right after we crushed them to the dust in 6 days. Before that they were simply "Arabs"- no comment.
Well, I see facts don't confuse you.


Quote:As for hating semites, I do no such thing I am not anti-semitic nor am I a racist, I'm an atheist, to hate is to be irrational. You however... get so worked up about wanting to be a Jew and an atheist. Someone could tell me I wasn't German or Italian and I could careless, but what kind of self importance have you given to being a 'jew' that would make you so much more important than anyone else? Why would I not care about being German or Italian? Because I don't view myself as such, I view myself and others as human beings. and you as a test. It's not many times I get Jewish/Israeli's in fact if you are Israeli it would probably be the first time I've talked to one about the holocaust, having said that your self delusion is incredible.

Yes you are anti-Semite, your actions speak by themselves, and as long as you deny that you're anti-Semite, that's how much I believe you are anti-Semite. What can I say, being irrational is human.
I am worked about wanting to be Jewish and atheist? do I have to remind you that you were the one to start with "you are not Jewish, you can't be Jewish and atheist because Judaism is a religion" and I merely claimed that you were wrong and you don't get to decide my identity? you started it, I answered you. Don't be so offended now.
You never actually talked with someone who relate to the Holocaust probably more than anybody else, yet you permite yourself to spear your all free time in order to disprove it? right, and I am self delusional.

Quote:Humanistic Judaism, I did read that, it grosses me out and it still doesn't make you a race.... OH GOD there is christian humanism! Eewww... you know what? I don't celebrate my Irish identity, my German identity, my Italian identity, my most likely British identity, my very small Native American identity I'm probably a little French too... but I don't celebrate these identities. Why? All they do is manage to divide me further from other people. I'm a human being, I celebrate that, and I celebrate all that my species has accomplished.

Because all those identities don't really matter to you. Being Jewish does matter to me. I can't just ignore all my history, most of it painful history, just because I decided I can't believe in god. And as I mentioned before, this painful history is one of the main reasons I can not believe in god, so how can I ignore it and yet at the same time use it to determine another meaningful identity of me, which is being atheist?

Quote:So why on earth would I want to celebrate the history of Christianity when I'm not even a Christian anymore?

You don't. But I'm still Jewish, and I need to find the balance between those 2 identities, and Humanistic Judaism has given me that balance.
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18-03-2012, 06:15 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(18-03-2012 02:12 AM)shiranl Wrote:  Yes you are anti-Semite, your actions speak by themselves, and as long as you deny that you're anti-Semite, that's how much I believe you are anti-Semite.

I disagree. His issue is morality not malice. This thing about "the need to uncover the truth" is a moral imperative.

Although he does make comments indicating bias, like the "cannot be Jewish and atheist" thingy.

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18-03-2012, 06:37 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
Oh my... My, my... What else will I read here? You see, there was some small threads where me and shiranl didn't agree, it was a bit about Palestine and Israel, but since she is there and I am not, I let go of the subject very quickly, there was no point in starting ridiculous arguments here. But you push it and push it, and you will never stop would you now?

The difference between Jews and all other religions is that being a "Jew" does not only mean that you follow Judaism. It can mean that, or it can mean that you are Jew by ethnicity. I hope I said this correctly? Anyway, you can be born American, then take Judaism as your religion and you will not be "a Jew", you would be "an American Jew". Yet shiranl is a "a Jew", but she does not believe in Judaism, so she is Jew by ethnicity, yet atheist concerning religion. Jews exist as a nation, Christians do not. That makes Jewish people unique a bit.

Please realize already that we do not see your views as logical, you will not change our minds. You made some interesting and radical proposals, but after quick review, we decided that you just went overboard and lost yourself in the whole conspiracy area. At least I did, don't know how the others have labeled you.

No one want to discus your TBC and typhus ideas anymore, we are glad to buy the story about Holocaust, we support that "lie", we will keep on supporting it and believing that it is the truth.

Can you now let this go, cool down a bit and maybe, just maybe have a normal discussion on something else, that does not involve WW2 or any kind of thing connected with this? Thank you.

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18-03-2012, 01:09 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(18-03-2012 06:37 AM)Filox Wrote:  Oh my... My, my... What else will I read here? You see, there was some small threads where me and shiranl didn't agree, it was a bit about Palestine and Israel, but since she is there and I am not, I let go of the subject very quickly, there was no point in starting ridiculous arguments here. But you push it and push it, and you will never stop would you now?

The difference between Jews and all other religions is that being a "Jew" does not only mean that you follow Judaism. It can mean that, or it can mean that you are Jew by ethnicity. I hope I said this correctly? Anyway, you can be born American, then take Judaism as your religion and you will not be "a Jew", you would be "an American Jew". Yet shiranl is a "a Jew", but she does not believe in Judaism, so she is Jew by ethnicity, yet atheist concerning religion. Jews exist as a nation, Christians do not. That makes Jewish people unique a bit.

Alright I'm going to try and do this the easy way, Jews originated from what nation? Israel. The Jews live in what nation? Israel. So their ethnicity would be Israeli. So if they were to take Judaism as their religion, she would be an Israeli Jew. If she were an atheist her ethnicity would be Israeli/Israelite.

Now if they had chosen Judea as their name it would be a giant cluster fuck no doubt, but thankfully some smart guy realized it just doesn't sound right to say a Jewish Jew or Jew Jewish or maybe it would be Judean not sure either way more people would be confused than they already are. but thankfully they chose Israel as the nation's name so it would be Isreali Jew, Israeli Atheist, or Israeli Christian. not Jew Jew, not Jew Atheist, not Jew Christian. Israeli's considered themselves a nation in exile for a long time so they became confused as to whether they were a religion or a race. Now they have their own nation, there shouldn't be any more stupor.



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18-03-2012, 02:55 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
Quote:Alright I'm going to try and do this the easy way, Jews originated from what nation? Israel. The Jews live in what nation? Israel. So their ethnicity would be Israeli. So if they were to take Judaism as their religion, she would be an Israeli Jew. If she were an atheist her ethnicity would be Israeli/Israelite.

This is what? the 3rd time I am trying to tell you you have no right to decide what is my identity?
I have come to the reasoning there is no god when I was 14 years old, since this is the proper age to look yourself, find your identity, find who you are- of course I have began questioning what does it means to me. like I said before- I can not ignore the fact my grandparents were hunted because they were Jewish people, I can not ignore the fact my grandmother had to fled her country when she was 12 because she was Jewish.
I have explored this subject since than, and the balance between my Judaism and my lack of belief in god was achieved about 2 years ago. that means I spent about 4 years exploring, and learning and searching information about the subject and at the same time using that information to form an identity that I could live in peace with. I understand why you insist on taking this one way of thinking, because it is esier, it is logical and I my self had a very hard time accepting this new process of thought. And I, unlike you, wanted to think otherwise, because it made me crazy living in such dissonance.
And maybe, just this time, take the advice from someone who is defenatley more knowledgeble then you are, and stop talking BS.

P.S- I'm asking you and everybody else in this forum, the nicest way I can ask, please stop using the words "Jew" and "Jews". I'm Jewish, not a Jew. my people are the Jewish people, not Jews. It freaks me out.
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18-03-2012, 03:10 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(18-03-2012 02:55 PM)shiranl Wrote:  P.S- I'm asking you and everybody else in this forum, the nicest way I can ask, please stop using the words "Jew" and "Jews". I'm Jewish, not a Jew. my people are the Jewish people, not Jews. It freaks me out.

... As much as I support your right to be treated nice, this seems like needless hairsplitting to me Huh I mean, it's the English language... By all means be freaked out, but know that if ever I use the word Jew I don't mean it with whatever strange derogatory connotation that you seem to think it has. If anything it has positive connotations for me. As you have asked I will not use it in reference to you, (if I ever have any dialog with you Tongue ), but I see no need to modify my use of the word Wink I mean, by all means explain further, if Jewish people in general would consider that insulting then I'd like to know so that I don't make a faux pas.
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18-03-2012, 03:15 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
Not to be rude but Jews are Jews what else should I call them? If I called them Catholics it wouldn't make any sense.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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