Was the Holocaust... a lie?
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23-05-2012, 01:00 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(22-05-2012 09:25 AM)Eternal Wrote:  Just because a group of people came together and said something happened? That group of people includes the Germans. How many murder trials do you know of where the defendant was found not guilty after making a full confession? I know, they were coerced, not just the high profile ones but the hundreds of ordinary soldiers also.

I'm sure there was widespread disease in the camps. If I locked you in my basement then you developed a disease due to malnutrition, would that still be my fault? Or would the fact that I never actually killed you exonerate me.

Your argument about eye witnesses above is badly thought out, makes no sense and demonstrates a sad lack of basic spelling let alone logic.

Credible, reliable and believable information has been provided for everything you can think of in this thread. Yet you keep banging the same drums. It really isn't a question of critical thinking, it is more like a not very bright person with a hard on for something.

Lets simplify the process once and for all. Make a list of all your points why you think the holocaust did not happen. Only factual points mind, no hearsay. We can then counter balance this with the evidence pointing towards it. We can then see what sources there are for the information on both sides. Then taking the reliability of sources, quality of information and all of the facts into account we should be able to say quite clearly which is the most likely.

If that doesn't tickle your fancy then may I suggest taking heed of this saying.

When all around think your daft, it is far better to keep quiet, than it is to open your mouth and confirm it.
hundreds of ordinary soldiers confessed? Rudolf Hoss commander at auschwitz 'confessed' that 4 milliion jews were murdered at auschwitz. Yet today most historians agree on a number of 1.2 million, further more he also confessed that they were murdered by zyklon b gas. Now if his very own testimony is wrong... and remember the nazi's were very good record keepers... and he was the COMMANDER of auschwitz. Does that give you a little inclination? If someone confesses to a crime there's no need to prove them innocent, that's what they were hoping for... the allies. Also there were innocent people executed at Nuremberg.

By your logic then the United States and the British are both guilty of war crimes then. Since they to had concentration camps where they deported undesirables to.

My views about eye-witnesses, everybody lies.




I highlighted the bold part, thank you for calling my information reliable and believable. I tried having a 'showdown' once already in this thread, it did not end it. We're still at it.

Again with the majority consensus thing? Hell have you learned nothing from being an atheist? 2,000 years ago, if you went around telling people that there weren't no god. They'd think you were daft. Hell you can even do that today in a lot of parts in the world and the people will still think you're daft! I guess we're both in the same boat.
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23-05-2012, 03:44 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
A simple 'no' would have sufficed.

The rest of it isn't worth addressing. I'm sure if I leave you to keep talking people will draw there own conclusions. Most will come to a different conclusion to you, please forgive us for this, we obviously don't have your super gullible logic powers.

The mind of the man that compares holocaust denial to atheism must be that of a pure genius, and claiming so on nothing other than that 'majority consensus thing' is equally ridiculous. Please go away and do some logic courses or something, then apply your learning to your own statements because I am yet to see you type anything that isn't holier than swiss cheese.

"Belief means not wanting to know what is true"
Friedrich Nietzsche
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23-05-2012, 03:59 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(23-05-2012 03:44 AM)Eternal Wrote:  A simple 'no' would have sufficed.

The rest of it isn't worth addressing. I'm sure if I leave you to keep talking people will draw there own conclusions. Most will come to a different conclusion to you, please forgive us for this, we obviously don't have your super gullible logic powers.

The mind of the man that compares holocaust denial to atheism must be that of a pure genius, and claiming so on nothing other than that 'majority consensus thing' is equally ridiculous. Please go away and do some logic courses or something, then apply your learning to your own statements because I am yet to see you type anything that isn't holier than swiss cheese.
I never said that just because something was agreed upon by the majority that it automatically became wrong. Rather I only used it because in many instances throughout history things commonly agreed upon by the majority have been proven wrong. However, during the time in which it is agreed upon by the majority severe criticism and outright hatred is always the enemy of anyone who dare question their holy and righteous beliefs.

I stopped worshiping any religion long ago, but I soon found out that worshiping politics was just as bad.
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23-05-2012, 05:08 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
Most things proven wrong are done so by the collection of facts and science, not conjecture.

The only science I have seen you provide was shaky at best, and proven wrong if I remember correctly.

"Belief means not wanting to know what is true"
Friedrich Nietzsche
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23-05-2012, 05:30 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(23-05-2012 05:08 AM)Eternal Wrote:  Most things proven wrong are done so by the collection of facts and science, not conjecture.

The only science I have seen you provide was shaky at best, and proven wrong if I remember correctly.
Throughout this entire thread I have supplied medical science, proof of forgeries, proof that the gas chambers are indeed fake which was proven by science. Tell me good sir, are you sure you're not the one conjecturing when all it took for you to believe in the holocaust was a photo of a pile of dead corpses? I have little respect for those who make up horror stories for their own benefit. Know this, if anything that these people said were true they would not talk about it so freely. WWI was the worst war ever fought, the amount of carnage there would make one sick. Or go insane... as many of the soldiers who fought in that war did go insane. Yet I do not see any insane holocaust survivors. Especially those with the most gruesome of stories and who profit a good deal from it. How freely they talk about it... a lot of the people who survived WWI never talked about what they saw. Because they actually saw it and could talk about it. So when I hear a person so calmly talking about how they saw an SS officer shoot a child and throw it into the furnace and then throw the child's sister into the furnace alive. I get just a little bit suspicious. Just a little bit.

And yet you conjecture the holocaust must be true because of these stories.
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23-05-2012, 08:46 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
Firstly, there are loads of people walking around like zombies who were never the same after surviving the holocaust, as someone in this thread says of one of her grandparents. I would imagine you will be hard pressed to find an interview with one because they don't talk about it. I suppose you have researched all the hospital facilities and mental health facilities and the relevant patient histories relating to the holocaust already though, and clearly you have a psychology degree also.

Secondly, how on earth would you know what made me think the holocaust happened. It is a big presumption to say that a picture of some corpses made up my mind for me.

I have provided no reason why I think it happened, so therefore there is no conjecture. You on the other hand have provided many reasons throughout this thread on why it didn't. Most are like your reason above though, because you don't think it's right, or you're suspicious. Really without looking at that individuals case how can you comment. Do you know what treatment they had after the holocaust?, do you know if it took a decade of counselling before that person could detach himself enough to talk about it? Also please explain how all these fake survivors profit personally from telling the lies.

"Belief means not wanting to know what is true"
Friedrich Nietzsche
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23-05-2012, 03:31 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(23-05-2012 08:46 AM)Eternal Wrote:  Firstly, there are loads of people walking around like zombies who were never the same after surviving the holocaust, as someone in this thread says of one of her grandparents. I would imagine you will be hard pressed to find an interview with one because they don't talk about it. I suppose you have researched all the hospital facilities and mental health facilities and the relevant patient histories relating to the holocaust already though, and clearly you have a psychology degree also.

Secondly, how on earth would you know what made me think the holocaust happened. It is a big presumption to say that a picture of some corpses made up my mind for me.

I have provided no reason why I think it happened, so therefore there is no conjecture. You on the other hand have provided many reasons throughout this thread on why it didn't. Most are like your reason above though, because you don't think it's right, or you're suspicious. Really without looking at that individuals case how can you comment. Do you know what treatment they had after the holocaust?, do you know if it took a decade of counselling before that person could detach himself enough to talk about it? Also please explain how all these fake survivors profit personally from telling the lies.
I have not read into any post war asylum's for holocaust victims because quite frankly, I've never even heard of one. And you say there some people that were walking around like zombies? I suppose that's true. Some of the diseases caused delirium, and you can only expect what that would do. Zombie frenzy state, insane guy status. But for the most part from what I've read the patients suffering from delirium were quite, and needed to be taken care of because they couldn't even manage themselves. Again a side effect from a disease and not a by-product of some horrible war crime.

And if you haven't provided a reason for the holocaust you sir are not going about this the right way. It is you who are claiming that some horrible attrocity happened in the 1940's and it is you sir who have to bring the evidence to support your claim. Which I think like me you'll find that evidence rather slim... at least for supporting the holocaust.

Again I have never heard of any insane wards for holocaust victims, ever, none, never, not in my entire life, and not while researching in depth about this subject for a few weeks. And how do they profit? Well... I don't know Europe recently gave like 10 k to each holocaust survivor? or it might have been 50k. And god knows that anyone who wrote a book about it got a load of money... and don't even mention the movies, it's like money galore there.

Ah about that person's grandmother. The only thing she ever said about the holocaust is 'you weren't there' could go either way.
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23-05-2012, 04:47 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(10-03-2012 11:16 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  
(10-03-2012 09:38 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  So, the thousands of pictures, eye-witness accounts, survivor testimony, depositions from allied soldiers, confessions by former nazi officials, contemporary documents, piles of human skulls, pits full of human remains, medical reports and several million missing persons are not convincing enough.

What the hell would be sufficient evidence? Experiencing it for yourself? In that case, none of pre-ArcticSage history can be sufficiently proven, so why bother to question it?

Pictures are worth a thousand words, eye-witness accounts can be intentionally false, survivor testimony can be false, the confessions brought during the Nuremberg trial... a sad case... those confessions and the confessions of others are not to be trusted. What documents? piles of human skulls and pits full of human remains, as I said earlier, I do not deny the individual actions against perpetrated by Nazi soldiers, or allied soldiers during the war. Medical reports? you still believe in the 6 million number?

Rather I have already told you my stance on the pictures of bodies, there are many ways they could have died, and it was most likely due to typhus (even anne frank died of typhus). Survivor testimonies have been proven false in the past, so if we are to discredit that there no longer becomes a credibility for eye-witnesses let alone survivor accounts. The Nuremburg trials... the utter corruption of our judicial system... you think that we wouldn't torture individuals for a confession? Oh my you have to learn, indeed there's even evidence to support that the ones on trial at Nuremberg were tortured, some of them knowing they were going to die took their life in their owns. Rather so... some of the executed were later proven innocent. So... why would they confess to crimes they didn't commit?

And I think I already explained the bodies. I don't quite understand what you mean by medical reports and statistical data after the war could have very well been modified. and I would also like to know what documents you speak of.
Yeah, it was all one big conspiracy by everyone involved to discredit the Nazis, Sage. Just like all biologists, palentologists, geologists, zoologists, botanists, astronomers, and physicists all got together and conspired to create the theory of evolution just to discredit and smear the truth about Yahweh and his Son, Jesus Christ. What a steaming pile of crap!

Have you ever wondered why there are only a few wing nuts like David Irving and Ernst Zundel peddling this BS while an overwhelming amount of evidence exists to disprove their claims? Also, have you ever bothered to investigate the backgrounds on these men, their reasoning, their testing methodologie, their motivations etc.?

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

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23-05-2012, 04:52 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(23-05-2012 04:47 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Yeah, it was all one big conspiracy by everyone involved to discredit the Nazis, Sage. Just like all biologists, palentologists, geologists, zoologists, botanists, astronomers, and physicists all got together and conspired to create the theory of evolution just to discredit and smear the truth about Yahweh and his Son, Jesus Christ. What a steaming pile of crap!

Have you ever wondered why there are only a few wing nuts like David Irving and Ernst Zundel peddling this BS while an overwhelming amount of evidence exists to disprove their claims? Also, have you ever bothered to investigate the backgrounds on these men, their reasoning, their testing methodologie, their motivations etc.?
As long as the science gets done and it gets done right I don't care about their backgrounds, their personal beliefs, or their motivations. I'm not a bigot you know. And there are a lot of people who don't believe in the holocaust, you should go on youtube to meet some of them and what they have to say about it, I would think that this 'overwhelming' amount of evidence would make there be less holocaust deniers wouldn't you? But it's unfair to say 'overwhelming amount' when you have provided none for your claims.
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23-05-2012, 05:01 PM (This post was last modified: 23-05-2012 05:08 PM by FSM_scot.)
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
Have you looked into the backgrounds of the people who did the 'research?.
Doing a little digging shows that many of them are neonazis or associate with nazi groups. So I would take any of the 'evidence' with a great deal of skepticism.

These people clearly have an agenda. It's the equivalent of a theist claiming to have proof of god. They use misinterpretation, falsified results, weak arguments etc as 'evidence' of their claims. It's really not worth any time looking at it.

And the people who beleive them show a level of gullibility usually reserved for the very religious.

Behold the power of the force!
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